Where are cross references / text flow around images?

[pds1602]

In this press release:

http://www.redlers.com/pressrelease/20040106.html

from January 2004, the following statement was made:

And this is just the beginning. Over the next few month RedleX intend to add to Mellel options like a full-blown RTF writer/reader, numbered and bulleted lists, Outlining, columns, index and cross reference, text flow around images, and much more.

It's now over three years later are still no cross reference facility and still no text flow around images. Can we please have a definitive statement on when these features will appear? I'm getting a little tired of waiting.

[ptram]

With all the wordprocessors, out there, doing text contouring and cross-referencing, I sincerely cannot understand so much anger in pretending these features.

As it is now, Mellel doesn't do text contouring and cross-referencing. If they are an absolute need _now_, I don't see why the free OpenOffice or NeoOffice, or the widely available at discount shops Microsoft Word, cannot be used instead of Mellel.

RedleX is a small company, made of just two brothers. I can't understand how we can pretend from them a detailed planning, when even companies like Microsoft delay for years the release of their buggy softwares.

Regards,
Paolo

[pds1602]

With all the wordprocessors, out there, doing text contouring and cross-referencing, I sincerely cannot understand so much anger in pretending these features.

As it is now, Mellel doesn't do text contouring and cross-referencing. If they are an absolute need _now_, I don't see why the free OpenOffice or NeoOffice, or the widely available at discount shops Microsoft Word, cannot be used instead of Mellel.

RedleX is a small company, made of just two brothers. I can't understand how we can pretend from them a detailed planning, when even companies like Microsoft delay for years the release of their buggy softwares.

Regards,
Paolo

Well, duh, maybe it's because people bought the product expecting these features to arrive within 'a few months' and are now feeling somewhat let down.

[rpcameron]

Well, duh, maybe it's because people bought the product expecting these features to arrive within 'a few months' and are now feeling somewhat let down.

No offense, but why purchase an application for what it "may", "might" or "ought" to do in the future? Your purchase of the software should be based on the feature-set at the time of purchase; to do anything else makes no sense. Snags in development are hit all the time in a multitude of projects, whether or not the developers share the nature of those snags. Just because the Redlers have not offered a reason for feature that is planned but not yet implemented, do not necessarily expect that's it's been forsaken—one ought to be happy that they keep a somewhat open line of communication with their users.

I suppose the gist of this is: don't buy something for what you want it to do in the future, purchase it for what you can do with it right now.

[macsailor]

I suppose the gist of this is: don't buy something for what you want it to do in the future, purchase it for what you can do with it right now.

Agree. I certainly want both index, cross reference and text flow around images, but I will survive until Mellel has all these features (and hopefully survive even after this). If I'm desperately in need of any of these features that Mellel does not have yet, I'll just use a tool that could do this.

Up till now, Mellel has provided me with most of the features they have promised and I'm quite optimistic about the other features as well. I'm for sure, prefer a product that is reliable and stable regarding the features it has, instead of having all the whistles and bells and acting like a drunk, illiterate librarian, if you understand what I mean.

I have full confidence that the Redlers will be able to provide us with all the features they have said they have in mind for Mellel. If it takes a month or two more than expected, I prefer that instead of a buggy product. When I bought Microsoft V.x when MacOSX came out, I nearly lost everything I had been writing on a paper at the University, just because the application said that it could not save my work because I (I mean the computer) was out of available memory or disk memory. Mellel have never, ever behaved in this manner. And that's why I prefer that the guys at Redlers take all the time they need to be able to preserve this stable product.

YMMV, but I believe that you will be satisfied with the product as the times goes by and more new, stable, features are implemented to a already great product. I'm not satisfied with all the ways Mellel behaves, but for the moment I can live with that.

The strongest competitive in the future may well be the new coming version of Nisus (Nisus Writer Pro), but for the time being, I prefer to write my paper works with the excellent Mellel. I have tested both the latest versions of Word, NWE and OO/NeoOffice, but no one let me write with the same feeling as Mellel does.

[donb]

My experience with Nisus, both the pre-X versions and the current version for X, is that they have often introduced great features, but it has always been very unstable. I much prefer Mellel's cautious approach -- at least I can be sure Mellel is not going to crash unexpectedly. A related gripe about Nisus, old and new, is that it was/is very unreliable. I can format out a text in Mellel, down to the hundredth of a point, and know that when I reopen my saved file later on, the text is going to stay formatted the way I made it. With Nisus, it was (and still is) very dicey whether a saved file will when reopened retain the precise formatting I worked long and hard over. I doubt that Nisus Pro will prove any more reliable than the versions so far.

Undoubtedly other people will have had different experiences with Nisus than I have had. It is extremely subjective. Most people probably have not been in the situation of discovering that a graphic they carefully placed suddenly appears on a different page when they save and later reopen the file. But I want total control over my files. With desktop publishing, for which I use Mellel (and Photoshop for image working), I need to know that I can rely on the programs. Unfortunately, Photoshop is by no means as reliable as Mellel, but at least when a Photoshop image has been imported into Mellel, I need not worry that it is suddenly going to change its mind without notice...

Tiger is an extremely reliable operating system; it has some bugs, but almost always a computer restart will set things right. We need programs to use with it that will be equally reliable, or more so, and such are very few and far between. The Redlers' caution is much better than the introduction of new but buggy features.

Don Broadribb

[BreakNeckRidge]

Well I agree with both sides of this issue. When I was trying out Mellel during the trial period, I never even thought to test out it's flow around image capabilities because it's such a basic capability in all modern word processors and I didn't need it to do anything fancy, just an occasional square picture that's left or right justified with text flowing around it.

So I never thought to test that feature and decided to buy Mellel because it's absolutely rock solid and I can make the interface disappear so it looks just like I'm writing on a piece of paper. However, when I tried to add an image and discovered that Mellel could not flow around images, I was pretty pissed, and here's why. Mellel sells itself as a program for academics, and almost every science paper that isn't pre-press requires a modicum of image handling capabilities.

Ever since then I've heard that this feature is coming, but a few releases have come and gone and nothing has happened on this front at all. It's a drag, and I think most of us who are annoyed wouldn't be if the developers didn't say it's on the way. If a housewife calls her husband at work and asks if he'll be home for dinner and he says no, the wife is disappointed, but she understands and plans her night accordingly. If a housewife calls her husband at work and asks if he'll be home for dinner and he says yes, I'll be there around supper time, but then he doesn't show up until close to midnight, the the wife is totally friggen pissed! And she has every right to be.

If it's not coming for probably a year or more, then tell us that, don't say it's coming soon. Say it's on our list, but we have some other big projects that we have to finish first.

However, while image handling is the feature that I most miss in Mellel, I don't want the Redlers brothers to sacrifice the other most important feature, stability.

To sum up: image handling sorely needed, don't tell us it's coming soon when it's not, keep up the great work making sure Mellel is rock solid stable.

[pds1602]

It's really very simple. Someone who promises something, which they fail to deliver, cannot be considered trustworthy, right?

If a company does the same then the same rules apply, i.e. they have been proven to be untrustworthy, and so how can I be sure that they won't simply walk away from the product in the future?

The rules are simple, don't promise something you can't deliver if you want to be taken seriously.

The counter 'argument' that you should only buy a product on current features assumes the vendor is untrustworthy anyway. I have a little more faith but in this case my faith has been sadly misplaced.

With all the wordprocessors, out there, doing text contouring and cross-referencing, I sincerely cannot understand so much anger in pretending these features.

As it is now, Mellel doesn't do text contouring and cross-referencing. If they are an absolute need _now_, I don't see why the free OpenOffice or NeoOffice, or the widely available at discount shops Microsoft Word, cannot be used instead of Mellel.

RedleX is a small company, made of just two brothers. I can't understand how we can pretend from them a detailed planning, when even companies like Microsoft delay for years the release of their buggy softwares.

Regards,
Paolo

[simifilm]

It's really very simple. Someone who promises something, which they fail to deliver, cannot be considered trustworthy, right?

If a company does the same then the same rules apply, i.e. they have been proven to be untrustworthy, and so how can I be sure that they won't simply walk away from the product in the future?

The rules are simple, don't promise something you can't deliver if you want to be taken seriously.

The counter 'argument' that you should only buy a product on current features assumes the vendor is untrustworthy anyway. I have a little more faith but in this case my faith has been sadly misplaced.

Jugded by theses standards, there probably isn't one single trustworthy software company.

[Alex Merz]

…by these standards, there probably isn't one single trustworthy software company.

Precisely. Did either Leopard or Vista ship feature-complete or as stable as their predecessors, Tiger and XP? They did not, not even remotely. And that with vast development resources available. Text flow around images is a common requirement in my work, but I am firmly in agreement with those who value speed and stability – the reasons I ditched MS Word and have happily adopted Mellel – over feature creep. There are many software packages available that specialize in layout when our requirements are more complex than Mellel can handle.

[Phil82]

There are many software packages available that specialize in layout when our requirements are more complex than Mellel can handle.

That is hardly an adequate answer, especially given that certain features are 4 years late. Unlike operating systems, people do need word processors to arrive in a timely manner with support for handy features. Otherwise, they just move on to other text packages.

[miles11]

No offense, but why purchase an application for what it "may", "might" or "ought" to do in the future? Your purchase of the software should be based on the feature-set at the time of purchase; to do anything else makes no sense.

I couldn't agree more. rpcameron's post ought ot be made a sticky.

Mellel is my favorite wp for many reasons. But mostly it's because I find no other word processor as pleasant to write in.

I now use Scrivener and Mellel. One big blessing, for me, is that Mellel has allowed me to leave Word locked away, far out of sight.

[Alex Merz]

There are many software packages available that specialize in layout when our requirements are more complex than Mellel can handle.

That is hardly an adequate answer, especially given that certain features are 4 years late. Unlike operating systems, people do need word processors to arrive in a timely manner with support for handy features.

Unlike operating systems (!).

I find your ignorance of the history of software development… disturbing.

Otherwise, they just move on to other text packages.

Then move along, already.

[ppnkg]

Nonsense.


1. Mellel rocks
2. Buy something that suits your needs at the time you buy it.
3. Yes, the implementation of these features has taken a bit too long; but:
4. People use mellel for the things it can do already, and it's software that works
5. We want the creators of Mellel to keep it like that, as they add features, and so far they have
6. The implementation of these features will be rock solid, and this is what matters

[Phil82]

Unlike operating systems (!).

I find your ignorance of the history of software development… disturbing.

If you've read that book, you'll realize that there is a lot to learn from the mistakes that were made previously. What's the point of reading a book on historic software failures if the only desire is to have a nostalgic feeling. The biggest problem with Mellel is that a promised feature is delayed for over 2 years, and then a release date is completely removed. This is a huge problem, as people can handle delays if an appropriate ETA is given. People do not like being kept in the dark and I think that is the main issue at hand.

Then move along, already.

This is the attitude of many users on these boards that cause me to be unable to recommend Mellel to any of my colleagues (who incidentally are all Machine Learning people, so we do have a background in computer science). Mellel looked promising, but it seems to have stagnated.

User1: Hi, I'm wondering where cross-referencing is? It was promised 2 years ago when I bought the license.
User2: Hah, you should have bought it based on the features it already shipped with, not what it promised.
User3: Yeah, it's your own fault for being ignorant of the software development process. All software is late.
User1: But this was promised at least 2 years ago and I'm thoroughly disappointed.
User2: Doesn't matter. Mellel works for me now and I'm happy with it.
User3: Me too. If you don't like it, sod off.

IMHO, that is an ignorant approach to customer relations since Redlers is not Microsoft and they cannot afford to have too many disillusioned customers.

Mellel (if it works as promised) will be a tremendously productive and powerful word processor. Document creation in Mellel is much more productive than in LaTeX. However, LaTeX works now and has for the last 10 years or so. I am currently using LaTeX almost exclusively, though I eagerly await the day Mellel arrives with the promised cross-references.