footnotes in section break

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Markus
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footnotes in section break

Post by Markus » Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:15 pm

After a section break, Mellel attaches in my document its related footnotes straight at the end of each section. How can I make section breaks, but still keep all footnotes at the bottom of each page?
Thanks for someone who helps me in this. I am still quite new to Mellel, therefore sorry for such probably diletantic questions...
(By the way: The help function is not quite helpful, as I am using the German Version, which has not yet the same full fletched help-function attached to and therefore gives almost no answers to any issues as it has also no access to the English help settings.)

matthias
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Post by matthias » Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:55 pm

I just ran into the same problem. Is this really the way Mellel ought to handle footnotes "through" section breaks? Mellel has an option to keep footnotes either at the end of text or at the bottom of the page, and I hoped selecting the latter would take care of this issue. But I it seems to make no difference, whatever I select.

Matthias

donb
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Post by donb » Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:11 am

If I understand you correctly, the following works for me:

1. Choose Insert>Edit note attributes
2. Under position choose Bottom of Page
3. Under numbering choose Restart every section

Don Broadribb

matthias
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Post by matthias » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:49 pm

Don,

sorry, it seems my earlier posting was not really clear. The problem is that inserting a section break into an existing text will split footnotes belonging to one single stream into two "groups" even though the position is set to "Bottom of Page" in the Edit note attributes dialogue. Those notes belonging to references in the text block before the section break will be put immediately below the section break, and this can well be the middle of a page. The remaining notes will be placed as expected at the bottom of the page. I think this is not the expected behaviour.

Matthias

Markus
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Post by Markus » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:10 am

Yes, Matthias has exactly written, was is happening. Very annoying indeed! Has anybody a clue, how to solve such a situation in Mellel?

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Post by Timotheus » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:44 am

At present, this is not possible. And this is only one of the limits of the present implementation of footnotes in Mellel. Some other shortcomings are:
- it is not possible to insert a white line between different categories of footnotes
- it is not possible to group footnotes horizontally
- the grouping of footnotes under columns looks rather primitive.

This and more has been discussed at length in an earlier version of our forum, which was killed by a hacker. Since then quite some time has passed. Perhaps it is time to resume the discussion.

Anyway, in the past, the Redlers have made clear that improvements of limitations like those mentioned above are definitely on their list. So all we can do is hope …

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Post by Markus » Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:06 am

Thank you Timotheus, for your helpful explanation and your little update for us new ones about this issue.
Well this is a real setback for me (and it seems not just me) using Mellel, because it forces me to use formatting in my new book in a way, I really don't like. I have many small illustrations in that book where I should use section break a lot to keep space in the book more efficient as requested from my publisher. It will be hard to explain to them that Mellel as professional writer application is not able to deal with that issue...
It is very strange that the Redlers have not yet dealt with this very annoying issue so far.

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Re: footnotes in section break

Post by Reiner » Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:28 am

Markus wrote:(By the way: The help function is not quite helpful, as I am using the German Version, which has not yet the same full fletched help-function attached to and therefore gives almost no answers to any issues as it has also no access to the English help settings.)
The German help files are exactly the same as the English one. They are just translated (I know it, I translated them). Help gives only a basic overview about Mellel's functions. The manual, the tutorials and this forum are the real source for help though they are all English only. German manual is in the work since a long time but I don't know what's the actual status.

Btw you have access to the English help files:
1. quit Mellel, open an info-window in the Finder and deselect German as language. On most Systems English should be chosen as the application's language when you restart Mellel now. If not you have to deactivate other languages.

2. You could change the language of your entire system in the system preferences.

3. What I would prefer: open the Mellel-package (context-menu when Mellel is selected), search for English.lproj within the package and copy the Help-folder to your Desktop or wherever you want. The help are simple html-files so you can use it with every browser.
Reiner

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Post by frvs » Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:39 am

matthias wrote:Don,

The problem is that inserting a section break into an existing text will split footnotes belonging to one single stream into two "groups" even though the position is set to "Bottom of Page" in the Edit note attributes dialogue.Matthias
Yes, I see what you mean. I have a book with several chapters separated by section breaks. My footnotes are set to bottom of page, restart every section. And, indeed, they are at the bottom of every page and restart every section. BUT if I introduce a new page break anywhere, then this will split footnotes as you describe. Probably, the reason why my notes behave properly is that I set them up before Mellel version 2.2.1. (which seems to have silently changed rules in this matter) was out. Would setting all your notes for end of document and then reconverting them to end of page help? If not, then my next suggestion would be, go back to the pre 2.1.1 version of Mellel and set all your footnotes and end-of-section breaks. When you go back to 2.1.1, you can add new footnotes at will, but apparently you cannont add new section breaks without triggering the undesired result concerning footnotes.

I had been one of many advocates for the need to have end-of-section notes. But I meant an OPTION to have notes either at the end of the page or at the end of the section, and not this messy situation that turns footnotes into section endnotes any time a new section break is added. I find this very strange, for (to my knowledge) the Redlers did not advertise any change to the footnotes/endnotes mechanics in 2.1.1. So, perhaps this is really just a bug and not yet a feature implementation? Anyway, a proper way to to have end-of-section notes is still sorely needed. In the meanwhile, of course, it is urgent to restore the possibility of having footnotes peacefully coexist with section breaks.

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Post by nicka » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:21 am

Anyway, a proper way to to have end-of-section notes is still sorely needed.
Seconded -- and actually 'end of section' probably won't do because section breaks are needed for changing number of columns. What is needed is something like 'end of chapter', i.e. at the end of a section defined by the auto-titles.

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Post by matthias » Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:18 am

frvs wrote:
matthias wrote:Don,

The problem is that inserting a section break into an existing text will split footnotes belonging to one single stream into two "groups" even though the position is set to "Bottom of Page" in the Edit note attributes dialogue.Matthias
Yes, I see what you mean. I have a book with several chapters separated by section breaks. My footnotes are set to bottom of page, restart every section. And, indeed, they are at the bottom of every page and restart every section. BUT if I introduce a new page break anywhere, then this will split footnotes as you describe. Probably, the reason why my notes behave properly is that I set them up before Mellel version 2.2.1. (which seems to have silently changed rules in this matter) was out. Would setting all your notes for end of document and then reconverting them to end of page help? If not, then my next suggestion would be, go back to the pre 2.1.1 version of Mellel and set all your footnotes and end-of-section breaks. When you go back to 2.1.1, you can add new footnotes at will, but apparently you cannont add new section breaks without triggering the undesired result concerning footnotes.

I had been one of many advocates for the need to have end-of-section notes. But I meant an OPTION to have notes either at the end of the page or at the end of the section, and not this messy situation that turns footnotes into section endnotes any time a new section break is added. I find this very strange, for (to my knowledge) the Redlers did not advertise any change to the footnotes/endnotes mechanics in 2.1.1. So, perhaps this is really just a bug and not yet a feature implementation? Anyway, a proper way to to have end-of-section notes is still sorely needed. In the meanwhile, of course, it is urgent to restore the possibility of having footnotes peacefully coexist with section breaks.
Hi,
I tried converting to endnotes and reconverting to footnotes, but to no avail. I think this is a bug that will probably be rectified soon. As far as downgrading to 2.1. is concerned I am reluctant to do this because version 2.1. won't recognise citation objects created in 2.2.

And by the way: Would anyone of you know what the option to have footnotes at the end of the text does as compared to end of page. I can't see a difference when using these two?

Matthias

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Post by nicka » Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:30 am

Would anyone of you know what the option to have footnotes at the end of the text does as compared to end of page. I can't see a difference when using these two?
It makes them into endnotes, that is, they get put right at the end of the text you are writing, however long it is.

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Post by matthias » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:26 pm

nicka wrote:
It makes them into endnotes, that is, they get put right at the end of the text you are writing, however long it is.
Sorry my question was not clear, I simply translated from the German version. Now I switched to English: I'd like to know what the "Below text" option actually does, I didn't mean the "End of document" option.

Thanks,
Matthias

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Post by nicka » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:41 pm

If the page is not full of text, there is a difference. 'Below text' means _immediately_ below the text. It puts the footnotes right after the text, possibly in the middle of the page.
'Bottom of page' puts the notes -- as it says -- at the bottom of the page.

There is no difference if the page is full of text. To see the difference try inserting a note in the last page of your document, or put a page break in the text shortly after the note. Either way, there should be some white space on the page after the end of that page's body text. Selecting 'Below text' puts the notes at the top of that white space, right under the body text.

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Post by matthias » Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:07 pm

nicka wrote:If the page is not full of text, there is a difference. 'Below text' means _immediately_ below the text. It puts the footnotes right after the text, possibly in the middle of the page.
'Bottom of page' puts the notes -- as it says -- at the bottom of the page.

There is no difference if the page is full of text. To see the difference try inserting a note in the last page of your document, or put a page break in the text shortly after the note. Either way, there should be some white space on the page after the end of that page's body text. Selecting 'Below text' puts the notes at the top of that white space, right under the body text.
Ah yes, I can see now what the difference is. Thanks a lot for enlightening me!
Actually, this is a handy feature. If there only weren't the bug discussed here in this thread.

Matthias

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