Importing rtf

[jb]

I've looked but didn't find anything, either in Forum archives or in Mellel Help/Guide...hope I didn't miss. If so, please forgive.

When importing an rtf file, Mellel produces a document with what appear to be certain default settings.

Some of these settings clearly come my default template (background color, e.g.), but others (paragraph style and note style, e.g.) do not.

Presumably the explanation would be that the source of the rtf would determine some of these things, but this doesn't always seem to be the case. For example, opening the same rtf file in Mellel and in Nisus produces some differences. In particular, and of concern at the moment, is that Mellel produces a document in which footnote numbering begins anew with each page. Of course this is easy to fix. But, it makes me wonder:

Are these settings assigned by the conversion process, or is there a (ghost?) template somewhere that can be edited?

Many thanks,
James

[Reiner]

I'm not sure if you mean this, but maybe this will help: You can set the used styles in Preferences > Styles.

[jb]

Thanks, Reiner, but this isn't it.

Even when I make a document in Mellel with footnotes with continuous numbering, and export that document to rtf, then import, the result is a document with footnote numbering that restarts with every page. This newly imported document has a Note Style called "RTF Footnotes"--I don't know where it comes from.

The Window size and position has also changed, by the way.

I've looked at all the templates and there's nothing that corresponds to what the rtf import is producing, as far as I can tell.

It may be that the rtf import mechanism has a default that can't be edited. I can live with that. Just wondering...

Thanks
James

[donb]

Can you open the RTF footnotes style and change the setting to Continuous?

Don Broadribb

[jb]

Yes, I can do this ad hoc each time, but there's no way I can see to set up the rtf conversion process to avoid this step. As I said, it's not a significant problem. I'm just wondering if there's a way to control this, especially since *some* aspects of the imported document clearly come from my default template (I use a background color that is readily identifiable,e.g.).

When I open Insert > Note > Edit Note Attributes, this 'RTF Footnote' style is preceded by a diamond indicating that this is a document style. It's clearly a style produced by the conversion process.

May well be the way it is. I'm just trying to confirm that.

Don't you have the same experience?
Try it easily by exporting any Mellel document to rtf then importing it. Then have a look at Insert > Note > Edit Note Attributes.

I'll assume that editing this parameter is beyond my control. I'm sure there's a decent reason.

Cheers
James

[nicka]

Even when I make a document in Mellel with footnotes with continuous numbering, and export that document to rtf, then import, the result is a document with footnote numbering that restarts with every page. This newly imported document has a Note Style called "RTF Footnotes"--I don't know where it comes from.

It's the same here. Also the footnote numbers in the text (but not in the notes) lose their superscript property.
These seem to be import, rather than export, problems because I get continuous numbering on the footnotes when opening the document in Word and they are properly superscripted.

I've had a few problems with importing/exporting documents with footnotes and endnotes from Mellel in the past: things like the problems mentioned, plus shifting from numbered notes to notes marked with symbols or vice versa.
It is always possible to fix things by messing with the note style, but it's not ideal to have to keep doing it.

[este.el.paz]

Folks:

Recently tried to import an RTF file from a Text-edit document--mostly basic text--however I use a lot of italics . . . I might be known as "mr Italica." But, in the mellel document none of the italics are italicized. If I highlight the word, which appear a bit larger than the surrounding text, it shows in the palette that the word is "oblique" but I can't get the words to actually tilt into the oblique position. It got the font right, some of the special charaacters from TE are lost, but I have italics splashed throughout the doc--kinda paiinful, since I can't manually change them at all. Any thoughts? Saw a post on Yahoo/Redlex forum about using F3???F2?? key to get Mellel to do italic stuff 'In house" but I can't find that in the Mellel Guide. Known issue??

eep

[donb]

The default setting in Mellel for the F3 key is italics.

If by chance the font used is Courier, the Apple Courier font does not have an italics face, and thus a regular face is substituted.

Don Broadribb

[nicka]

I think Don is right, but it is complicated by the fact that the font used does have an Oblique face that works in TextEdit. I think I have figured it out, using clues posted to the Yahoo group list. Here's what I just posted there:

I have reproduced the problem. The offending font on my computer is an Adobe PostScript (Type 1) version of Courier, which is in /Library/Application Support/Adobe/Fonts. I also have two (!) Apple font families also called simply Courier, which are both TrueType (one seems to have come originally from OS 9, the other is a system font on OS X). The difference is that the Adobe Courier family has Oblique and Bold Oblique, but the Apple Courier families do not.

My guess is that TextEdit can display PostScript fonts, but Mellel can't (or can't in this case). Since the Oblique faces only exist in PostScript forms they work fine in TextEdit, but will get some other font substituted for them if the text is then brought into Mellel.

The solution is to find a TrueType or OpenType font family with an Oblique and put the text into that. On my computer I have Courier New, which is TrueType, from OS 9 and OS X, and Courier Standard, which is OpenType, and which I think came with OS X. Courier New has 'italic' and 'italic bold' faces, which look oblique to me; Courier Standard has 'medium oblique' and 'bold oblique'. Changing the text to either of these in TextEdit will mean that when you bring the text over to Mellel it will retain its appearance.

One caveat: if you bring the text in from TextEdit to Mellel and then attempt to change the font family you will irreversibly lose the distinction between the normal and oblique text, because of the way character styles work in Mellel. So select all the text in TextEdit, change the font family to one of the ones I recommended, or any other OpenType or TrueType family with normal and italic/oblique, AND THEN bring the text into Mellel.

[este.el.paz]

Folks:

OK. Appreciate the thorough reply and the fact that you reproduced the problem. Had some responses on the Yahoo group--but, I thought that the distinction between "oblique" and "italic" was simply semantics, but perhaps it isn't???? But the document was created from within Text-Edit where I selected Courier--which may offer "oblique" font and the same font in Mellel also offers "oblique" as one of its choices--but which fail to show up as that . . . when imported .
I will have to ponder what you have written further, but not sure if it will solve the issue. It doesn't really matter to me if the text is "italic" or "oblique"--I just want it to tilt to distinguish it from the other text. I'm working from within TE, and have no extra font programs other than Apple issue and Mellel-- whether that be OpenType or NewType I don't know. I am happy to try changing everything to Courier new in TE to see if mr Mel can understand that font better--but how will that be different than importing Oblique from TE to Oblique in Mel??? Perhaps in the rarified world of fonting technology there may be a huge difference between italic and oblique--but on the mean streets of LA that is a "spade." I'll post back with the results from CrNew--sometime tomorrow--thanks for the time.

eep

[nicka]

The distinction between italic and oblique certainly is semantic: they mean different things! (Sorry, but I am a linguist working on meaning...) See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_type and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italic_type

My explanantion was not clear enough. In a nutshell: use whatever version of Courier you have that has a full set of faces (regular, italic or oblique, bold), all in TrueType or OpenType format. The problem with the Courier oblique you have been using is nothing to do with it's being called 'Oblique' (assuming I am right and you have the same font versions as me). The problem is entirely that the oblique face is in PostScript format and Mellel can't use it.
You can check the format of your fonts in FontBook. Or you can just assume that your installed fonts are like mine and use Courier New or Courier Standard.

I am happy to try changing everything to Courier new in TE to see if mr Mel can understand that font better--but how will that be different than importing Oblique from TE to Oblique in Mel???

In short: it will be different because Courier New's 'italic' face (actually it is oblique, but misnamed 'italic') is in a format that Mellel can use. Courier's oblique face is not in a format usable by Mellel.

Courier Standard's oblique face is also usable by Mellel.

Hope that is more helpful.

[Mart°n]

The problem is entirely that the oblique face is in PostScript format and Mellel can't use it.
You can check the format of your fonts in FontBook. Or you can just assume that your installed fonts are like mine and use Courier New or Courier Standard.

Quite a good research but there’s one wrong assumption. Mac OS X looks inside 3 or 4 specific folders to find the fonts it should use:

Macintosh HD/System/Library/Fonts
Macintosh HD/Library/Fonts
Macintosh HD/Users/YourUserName/Library/Fonts
and, if you have a PowerPC Mac with Classic (OS 9) installed:
Macintosh HD/Mac OS 9/System Folder/Fonts

Every font outside of those folders will not be activated or used by Mac OS X. As you (Nicka) have said, OS X is only delivered with 2 Courier Font-Faces:

Macintosh HD/System/Library/Fonts/Courier.dfont

This .dfont package contains only a Regular and an Bold font face (a separate font file for each of those two faces). As Mellel only could use fonts and font-faces that are represented by a font-face file, it only could see (and work with) the Regular and the Bold font face. In times of OS 9, missing italic faces were produced by the computer by simply slanting (tilting) the regular font-face. Mac OS X doesn’t support this in general (only for ancient apps like MarinerWrite, AppleWorks…) as it leads to an ugly look compared to real designed italic font-faces.
However, as it seems, Mac OS X itself has built in one exception which is true for the Courier font. I don’t know why they have done this, but with all OS X applications that use the Cocoa-Text-System (TextEdit, Pages, OmniGraffle, Mail… – easily recognizable by the typical font panel that uses the 4 column-view) you could use a Oblique (Italic) and a Bold-Oblique (Bold-Italic) version of Courier even if there is no real font-file that contains those oblique/italic version. Mellel also could see this workaround (fake) but as soon as it likes to access the real fonts behind those font-list-entries, it fails as there are no real fonts behind. As a result, the regular Helvetica face will be displayed.

So the oblique/italic Courier font faces work in most Mac OS X applications but not in Mellel.

As you (Nicka) have found out, there are some other Courier font-files inside a folder:

Macintosh HD/Library/Application Support/Adobe/Fonts
(I’ve found some more in:)
Macintosh HD/Library/Application Support/Adobe/Reqrd/Base

Those fonts depend on the Adobe applications installed (you’ll see them if you installed some Adobe applications). Those fonts are not visible to Mac OS X and therefore it couldn’t use them at all (not because they’re in PostScript or OpenType format but because OS X doesn’t look inside those folders). Adobe applications (Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, Adobe Reader) look inside those folders and therefore could use those fonts.

The tricky part
Mac OS X could use fonts in .dfont-Format, TrueType Mac, TrueType PC, PostScript Mac and OpenType format if they are located in one of the folders mentioned above. One trick to teach Mellel the oblique/italic Courier font-faces is to copy those fonts found in the Adobe/Fonts folders (also mentioned above) into one of the OS X folders (probably the Macintosh HD/Users/YourUserName/Library/Fonts one). If one doesn’t see the Adobe/Fonts folders or the Courier fonts inside this folder, installing the freely available Adobe Reader should help. Once done this, the oblique/italic font-faces of Courier are available to Mellel too.

[este.el.paz]

Martin:

OK, that sounds good, as I said on the Redlex forum I like the look of Courier better than Courier New--and I have Adobe Reader . . . . So, it seems like I should be able to get real oblique/italic up and running in mr Mel with relative ease!!?? I shall attempt to do so.

eep

[nicka]

Thanks Martin! I'm glad there's someone around here who knows about this stuff.

[este.el.paz]

Mel watchers:

As per mr Martin's suggestion I tried to find the Adobe versions of Courier in my Reader version 7.05 that I use on regular basis. First I looked in the App Support folder that he listed above--and no go--no Fonts to be found. Then I "spotlighted" terms "adobe fonts" and got the ROMAN.TXT files and a few others that were in the APP Support folder but nothing that could be seen as the real deal . . . . Then I spotlighted the adobe reader folder with "fonts," but the font hand was still hidden behind the many veils of Adobe-dom. For those with little or no Font management skills or education such as my self I include the info on how I found the lost Fonts in Seattle below:

Then I control clicked on the Adobe Read icon after I opened the same-named folder in Applications and selected "show package contents" and after clickiing on all of the folders I finally found "Font"--path--Contents/MacOS/Resources/Font. And in there they have a few fonts including Courier Standard and its Bold/Oblique in separate folders as .otf files. When I 2x clicked on the file(s) it opened in the OS Font Book application with an "Install Font" button to click and (font not installed) in greyed out letters on left. I clicked install button for each of the four files--then clicked "Vaildate fonts" for them--logged out for good--and then changed to Courier Standard in TE document; which then was imported into mr Mel and I have Oblique letters in the places that I selected for "italicization" in the original TE--and I'm happier. Still liked the look of reg. Courier--but Courier Standard at least is more pleasing to my eye than CrNew . . . .

Anyway, that's the news from lake Italic or lake Oblique--whichever has more meaning for you . . . .

eep