We don't need no stinking page numbers!!!!!!!!!

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este.el.paz
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We don't need no stinking page numbers!!!!!!!!!

Post by este.el.paz » Sun May 18, 2008 2:17 am

Folks:

Overall, I'm very happy with Mellel, mr Mel I call him, in relationship to it/himself he's a wonderful program--version 2.2.7 is the model clone I'm playing with. However, when it comes to playing with others, like the majority of other programs used by the kown world, mr Mel remains a tacit introvert . . . . So, when I need to apply online for some publishing venue I can't use Mellel files, and we know that mr Mel is weak when exporting to word format, he's stronger when exporting to RTF, except, not all the pieces and parts make it into the export--like page numbers disappear. And then lots of tidying up and trying to get citations to show up, make for a great nuisance and headache . . . . And this has been a problem for awhile . . . and we take it all in stride, with good cheer, etc. Except for page numbers; it seems unforgivable that page numbers don't make it into the RTF export?????? Or, no, is that a good thing?? The other issue in the RTF export is that it has been reported back to me from WORD users that those files that I've tidied up become unopenable by PC users . . . leaving me alone, with mr Mel . . . again, naturally. Any plans to get page numbers into RTF exports?

I did a few searches of forum posts to find my answer first, saw the issues with citations from BE not showing up, and a post from Danzac saying he uses Google Documents to collaborate with the entire rest of the known world--but no details on what that means. On trying to upload a Mellel file to Documents it doesn't take Mellel files, so we need to export to something first with the usual results, or can we >select all >copy/paste into the Doc page and that will work? Or is there the usual tidying up and looking for citations, etc to get all the parts and pieces into the web Document. Also saw post that Sente is claiming to work and play smoothly with the rest of the known world . . . nothing else listed about page numbers in the search results. Thanks for any thoughts. Is this where NeoOffice is used to import the Mellel file and then we can export from NeoOffice to RTF and then all the parts, pieces, and page numbers, citations from BE all show up without it being a sloppy mess?? Is that the tidy way to deal with this real problem??? Mr Mel is strong in the upper body, but he's got weak knees and he's very sensitive when around other programs--help!!!!!!! : - 0

eep

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Re: We don't need no stinking page numbers!!!!!!!!!

Post by jannuss » Sun May 18, 2008 4:56 am

eep,

I understand your frustration, but if you want help with your problems, you are going to have to be much more specific.

1. Page numbers -- never had any problem with page numbers in Mellel's rtf files. Are your page numbers in headers/footers? Do the rest of the headers/footers get transferred correctly? Have you tried opening the rtf file on your Mac before sending it? [True, TextEdit does not see the page numbers on my rtf files, but NeoOffice does which means they are there.]

2. Transferring rtf files to WORD users -- I also once had a problem with rtf files that were unopenable on the PC side. The problem turned out to be somewhere in my ISP's server which "condensed" the file. When I changed the extension from "rtf" to "doc" the problem went away [and my PC colleagues were happier].
Note: changing the extension name in this way is a total bluff. The file remains in rtf format and WORD recognizes it as rtf.

3. Citations -- I don't use them, so I can't help you here, but again, more details will help others offer you advise.

Janet

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Re: We don't need no stinking page numbers!!!!!!!!!

Post by nicka » Sun May 18, 2008 10:55 am

No problems here with page numbers or citations, importing and exporting to and from rtf. Post details, as Janet says, and we'll fix your problems.

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Re: We don't need no stinking page numbers!!!!!!!!!

Post by este.el.paz » Sun May 18, 2008 9:40 pm

Folks:

OK, thanks for the replies. The only way I can be more specific is to add that the page numbers are in the header & to say that, correct, I'm using TextEdit to open them to check for missing parts and pieces, and in TE the page numbers don't show. I don't use footnotes or anything in the footer so I can't say if the footer is showing and the header is not. I'm waiting to hear from an editor right now as to whether he can open the RTF export of Mellel file I sent a few days ago and perhaps he may say the page numbers have been found or perhaps not??? But I shouldn't have to wonder, it should be just like exporting to PDF--it's all there in PDF. As you said in #2 you also have had the experience of WORD users not being able to open the RTF after adjustmenst have been saved in Text Edit--so perhaps simply changing to .doc will help and certainly that is easy enough--but does that change the ability to edit and save changes in TextEdit, and/or keep page numbers intact and viewable?

In the past when I had another paper to publish I had a bibliography and inline citations and all that was lost in the translation to RTF--as others here have also found, hence my lowered horizon of expectation for mr Mel vis the "external world" to a simple expectation/prayer for page numbers. For right now the paper I'm in negotiation on only has three (3) references that don't have citation objects (the peter principle--function at maximum level of dysfunction)--so I don't need that this time--but . . . . Back to page numbers, that is the glaring omission for this present paper, it's terrible to have to beg forgiveness for not having page numbers when moving from such a capable program, within itself, to coming up very short when dealing in the "professional" world of WORD users. There was a mention of NeoOffice showing the page numbers and so asking again is that what is needed to handle the shortcomings of Mellel in the open market of world writing commerce? And, then, is the Mellel file imported into NeoOffice file format and exported from there to .doc or rtf???

Don't know what else to say to be more specific on the page number thing; understanding there are some complicated procedures to get inline citations to show up in export. Here, my Page numbers are inserted in header and show up in Mellel and then what else is there??--Export to RTF is selected and the only choices I get are to re-name file and to Save it in a folder . . . it doesn't ask me "would you like page numbers to be shown or hidden from public view"??? There are no choices to make for the internal details of the export, so how can we look into that process?? : - ) And, as I have chosen to live a life free from microsoft products of any kind, the only program I have to open RTF's is TextEdit--which doesn't show the page numbers to me (its owner), and some paragraph indents are lost, and inline citation objects are also jettisoned (which due to the complexity may or may not be understandable)--but page numbers????


What else should be said to be more specific--Tiger--10.4.9, Mellel 2.2.7.

Thanks for any details. Wondering again if Danzac is copy pasting from mellel into Google documents or if it's a fresh start in Google and then that final Document product is copy/pasted into a Mellel file for in-house keepsake?

eep

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Re: We don't need no stinking page numbers!!!!!!!!!

Post by nicka » Sun May 18, 2008 9:51 pm

I'm using TextEdit to open them to check for missing parts and pieces, and in TE the page numbers don't show.
So that's your problem, I think. Mellel exports the page numbers but TextEdit doesn't display them, and if you open the file in TextEdit and resave it, they will actually be lost, I believe (caveat: I haven't tested recently, but this is how it used to be). Solution: use some other application to view rtf. Word or NeoOffice, for example.

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Re: We don't need no stinking page numbers!!!!!!!!!

Post by este.el.paz » Sun May 18, 2008 10:29 pm

Nicka:

OK, thanks very much. Yes, that appears to be how it still is in TE--page numbers lost when saved. : - ) So, looks like I'm on my way to buy NeoOffice . . . . And I'll export to RTF and then change it to .doc and see if that works to raise my horizon of expectation for mr Mel in the externalization area.

eep

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Re: We don't need no stinking page numbers!!!!!!!!!

Post by petrus » Sun May 18, 2008 10:31 pm

Before you buy NeoOffice, have you looked into OpenOffice? It may have the conversion capability you need, and it is free.

este.el.paz
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Re: We don't need no stinking page numbers!!!!!!!!!

Post by este.el.paz » Sun May 18, 2008 11:02 pm

Petrus:

Thanks for the thought, free is very exciting to me . . . particularly in these days of tight money. Seems like most of the time the comments posted at the Redlex forum mention NeoOffice and in fact they only are asking for a minimum donation of $5, so if I wanted all of the capabilities that are included, that would be cheap. But, free is better if all I want is to get from mr Mel's translation problems to the greater world of PC correspondence . . . . Is the OpenOffice format the .odt file that Google lists as one of its compatible file types? If so that would be handy for getting files to G Documents and if it works for saving page numbers that would do it. Thanks, I will check it out.

eep

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Re: We don't need no stinking page numbers!!!!!!!!!

Post by shades » Sun May 18, 2008 11:22 pm

Both NeoOffice and OpenOffice are "free", but they do accept donations.

Yes, OpenOffice saves as default to .odt
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este.el.paz
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Re: We don't need no stinking page numbers!!!!!!!!!

Post by este.el.paz » Sun May 18, 2008 11:29 pm

Shades:

Alrighty, thanks for that. Seems like NeoOffice is more up front about asking for a "donation" first . . . . But, if OpenOffice asks later is that less guilt producing???? Any differences in how they handle mr Mel files or is it the same word processing program script used in both Neo and Open??

eep

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Re: We don't need no stinking page numbers!!!!!!!!!

Post by shades » Mon May 19, 2008 1:48 am

Same basic program from what I understand. NeoOffice is based on Java and OpenOffice is Aqua. But i am probably least qualified to go beyond this. ;) :D
Rich
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Re: We don't need no stinking page numbers!!!!!!!!!

Post by jannuss » Mon May 19, 2008 4:42 am

Getting back to the questions at hand: it seems to me that none of the problems eep is having are Mellel problems.

eep, you can view your Mellel rtf file with other apps but do not modify or resave them.
[If all you need is to check the file, try importing it back into Mellel itself.]

-- Let's be clear on this: the page numbers are not lost.
TextEdit is a very limited program. No surprise that it doesn't display page numbers, etc.

-- the same probably applies to citations.

-- about unopenable Mellel rtf files: again, to be perfectly clear, this may be the fault of one of the servers in the transmission path between you and your user. Do not change the rtf file. Merely rename the extension to "doc."

Janet

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Re: We don't need no stinking page numbers!!!!!!!!!

Post by este.el.paz » Mon May 19, 2008 3:14 pm

Janet:

Yes, once again mr mel acquires no blame, the primordial man in the grey suit, etc. However, as it is that Mellel is a mac program it should be able to interact better with its mac playmates. Why should we need yet another word processor to open and check and or make corrections in an exported mellel file? When, as I said PDF's come through OK why is it that RTF's do not? Perhaps you answered that question by saying TE is "limited." But, the question remains as to whether opening exported mellel files with Neo or Open Office will reveal any formatting problems--indents, citations lost, etc. Which I will do and test out in the near future and I can report my findings if needed. But this has happened when I've opened the files in Word for Mac in the past where it mostly looks OK and then some paragraph indent is moved up to the line above, with a gap or the citations are stripped. If, as you say TE is a limited program, will Neo or Open show the problems that other people have found after I blithely sent Mellel exports out for publishing, since I am not able to check them with TE, only to have it make me look like a trog . . . . And that is the reality; perhaps as here with me, folks generally assess blame on others (poor mr Mel) before looking into whether it is their server (or whatever) that is the cause of the problem. And, usually people are using what will least meet their needs . . . in my case I am not overpaid and so I don't have all of the word processing programs to see how the exports look in each of them. Nor do I have all of the software that would tell me that I need to use Neo Office to solve my problem with Mellel exports, that leaves only the forums . . . .
Perhaps, in the interest of science, Mellel should post on its website in large letters or in the guide the fact that exports should not be opened by TE and that exports should be checked first by Neo Office or Open Office, then mr mel really would have No Blame stamped on their permanent record. Otherwise, in the interest of science, it should be said that those of us who trust mellel to be our word processor in our interactions with the greater world of publishing are being thrown under the bus due to the lack of information--which is an error of omission. Whether in this case the editor that will be looking at my latest article will overlook no page numbers remains to be seen, OR, will he sagely understand that any errors he is finding in the file are actually HIS problem??? Nah, the errors are my problem and I'm trying to find out what I can do--and I have been instructed here, than you--but only after the egg has been smeared all over my underfinanced face, etc.

Again, thank you for your thoughts, I do appreciate your time spent to reply and make your clarifications--.rtf to .doc without opening, etc. There still was no elucidation on whether the Mellel file is exported to RTF and then opened by Neo/ Open or whether it is imported by Neo/Open--or if that doesn't matter. And whether the Google Documents accepts only the Neo/Open office import from Mellel or if it's s fresh start there and then that is imported into Mellel.

eep

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Re: We don't need no stinking page numbers!!!!!!!!!

Post by jannuss » Mon May 19, 2008 4:30 pm

este.el.paz wrote:However, as it is that Mellel is a mac program it should be able to interact better with its mac playmates. Why should we need yet another word processor to open and check and or make corrections in an exported mellel file?
Why do you need to perform this step at all?
And, if you need to perform it, why would you ever think of using TextEdit?
As I've already said, the best way to check the rtf file [if it needs checking] is to import it back into Mellel.

You will never get perfect one-to-one text file transfer between computers . . . not even between PCs running WORD . . . there are too many variables.

When working with colleagues on PCs with WORD, I use rtf during the preperation/correction/approval phase, but I always produce the final output using pdf. That's the only way to insure that the final product looks exactly as I want.
There still was no elucidation on whether the Mellel file is exported to RTF and then opened by Neo/ Open or whether it is imported by Neo/Open--or if that doesn't matter. And whether the Google Documents accepts only the Neo/Open office import from Mellel or if it's s fresh start there and then that is imported into Mellel
Again, I don't understand where this question comes from.

An rtf file is an rtf file is an rtf file. NeoOffice knows how to open/import them, Mellel knows how to open/import them and Google Docs knows how to open/import them. None of these applications cares who/what created the file.
And, one more time, since you are only opening the rtf in oder to check it, you won't be resaving it, so the choice of the checking app has zero affect on the file.

Janet

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Re: We don't need no stinking page numbers!!!!!!!!!

Post by este.el.paz » Tue May 20, 2008 4:01 am

jannuss wrote:Why do you need to perform this step at all?
Janet: OK, thanks again for your reply, overall this series of posts has been informative. To answer your question above; I found out the hard way that the exports to WORD format do not translate well, which could be an understatement. Several years ago while working through my doctoral degree and the time pressures there and the need for perfect documents showed me that mr Mel's exports were flawed. And that's how we found out about export to RTF was the better option; but, once or twiced burned taught me that checking the file would be a good idea--and it still is. At that time no one mentioned other programs to check RTF's--I stated then as now I didn't have nor want WORD--no one mentioned Neo Office. And, we could humbly ask, if there are no problems in the Mellel file, but when exported they show up, why would we re-import them to look at them in Mellel again?
jannuss wrote:And, if you need to perform it, why would you ever think of using TextEdit?
As I've already said, the best way to check the rtf file [if it needs checking] is to import it back into Mellel.
I spent the day thinking about that question--why would I even think of using TE to open an RTF? And, I think I've grown as a person in that process, which I'd like to share. The most basic answer is because it's the default Apple program for opening RTF's--it's there. When you click on an RTF, TE opens it. It actually never dawned on me to try opening a file that I just exported from Mellel, with Mellel . . . it seems obvious now, but why would we export it and then open it from the same program? The problem is not with how Mr Mel relates to himself, but with others; if I use mr Mel to check his own work he says it's fine. The problem is trying to find out how the majority of the world's word processors handle the exported product--which I don't own or want--but others do and they expect everyone to be just like them. Possibly you may cringe when I say that I find Appleworks to be an adequate word processor, but that won't show me how the file looks to PC users, and neither will importing back into mr Mel himself . . . . He says everything is "OK from here"
jannuss wrote:Again, I don't understand where this question comes from.
I don't understand why you say that either. The topic of using Neo Office is mentioned by you above and by others on this and the Yahoo forums--but no details of what they are or you are doing with them are mentioned--so I'm asking about it. It appears that they are used to move files from PC to Mellel and back again--which apparently saves some formatting or citations, etc. But if you are asking why I would need to do that, then why is it mentioned at all? We've completely absolved mellel from all blame in terms of its export/import capability, except we know that problems are still there. Taking your advice to re-import or use Mellel to open an export to RTF, with the extension changed to .doc, I found that the first line was three lines below the top of the page. In the Mellel file it started right at the top. So, the question on what programs to use to either open RTF files or import WORD files into first, before importing to Mellel remains. Google Documents does not work with Mellel files, so it has to be in another format--if the open source programs help to keep things orderly OK, but how?
jannus wrote:And, one more time, since you are only opening the rtf in oder to check it, you won't be resaving it, so the choice of the checking app has zero affect on the file.
OK, I have heard you say that NO translation is ever perfect and that may be the actual answer, we all have to work around that. But, since the exports DO have a few issues--and in this post I was concerned with page numbers, I haven't gone into the whole problem of dealing with citations and bibliographies--we have to try to correct the problems in the exported file--and then we have to SAVE the changes we have made for them to take effect. It's become clear in my contemplation today on the why of using TE, that I can never use TE again--at least with a straight face or when I'm playing with mr Mel; but HOW can we make corrections to our exported products? Is this where the Neo or Open programs come into play?

As I stated at the top--I have issued a PDF to go along with my suspect RTF export, but publishers can't work with a PDF submission--they want WORD or RTF, and they want it neat and tidy . . . they don't want paragraphs starting where another sentence ended with a single word, etc.

Thanks for all the help and insights offered. The issue discussed in this post was lost page numbers and that problem has been solved with the suggestion by Nicka that the problem is using TE to make changes and save them . . . . Another program to do that must be procured, maybe AW will work to make corrections in .doc exports from the wily mr Mel. : - )

eep

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