Character misbehavior

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rpcameron
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Re: Character misbehavior

Post by rpcameron »

I've just been browsing this topic with mild interest, but I think that Janet's nailed it on the head. If you want to have character styles have full compatibility with a secondary script/font, then each variation needs to be fully set with a face for the secondary font, as well. So if your B variation (F2) is set to bold for your primary font, then you need to also make sure that you adjust the "Script", "Secondary Font" and "Face" dropdowns of the character style dialog to match the primary font of not only each character style, but also each and every variation of that character style.

I believe that underlines would carry through regardless of the "Face" setting of the secondary font, but bold, italics, or other such characteristics that rely on true fonts need to be individually set for each variation. It would be nice if they automatically carried over, but I can understand the reason why they might not, especially if one uses arabic, CJK, runic, script or other types of fonts or scripts that do not lend well to italic variations, as a secondary font.
— Robert Cameron
KevinR
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Re: Character misbehavior

Post by KevinR »

Getting back to Kevin's initial problem . . . based on the text file he sent, it appears that he hasn't defined bold and italic faces for the secondary font. I suggest that Kevin define bold and italic for both main and secondary fonts and then try the test again.

======
I appreciate all the thought that is going into this discussion, but this suggestion--even if it is in fact correct--makes no sense, if you see what I mean. The secondary font is for the "other" script. In my case, Arabic. So, primary font is Roman/US English, whatever.

The secondary font should ONLY be invoked when I go to the Arabic keyboard. So it should have NO effect on the text when I am typing in English and attempt to change Roman characters to bold or italic---right?

There should be no interference from one font environment (primary) to another font environment (secondary).

Is this clear?
Am I being obtuse?
thanks again
KevinR
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Re: Character misbehavior

Post by KevinR »

Further: If the requirement that any character settings for font form B, C etc. be mapped on to both the primary AND the secondary font, the primary font is limited to the options of the secondary font. Why would this be good?

In the event, my primary font has Roman, Bold, Italic, and Bold Italic. But the secondary font (from microsoft, go figure!) has only Roman. So I can't invoke the bold, italic, or bold italic in my primary font because the secondary font doesn't have those faces?
To repeat IF MY SECONDARY FONT HAS NO ITALICS, I CAN'T USE ITALICS IN THE DOCUMENT EXCEPT VIA THE AD HOC USE OF THE PAETTES?

IF that is the case, it makes no sense and is bad design.

But I can't imagine that is the case. I'll try and change the secondary font and see if this is what is at issue.

Kevin
Last edited by KevinR on Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KevinR
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Re: Character misbehavior

Post by KevinR »

Further further
I just want to express my frustration with this whole setup. It is "powerful" but it is absurd. Trying on my test file to check the theory about secondary font setting, I changed "normal." Without asking, that change has been applied to all the other mellel files I have with "normal" without asking? How stupid is that?

Styles should be linked only to the file, and then BY CHOICE, by deliberate action, should be applicable to other files.

Really, I like the gestalt of Mellel, and I like the proprietors, but this is ridiculous. That there is so much confusion on this, that they have had to create tutorials to explain paragraph and character styles, something that should be the most elementary feature of a word processor, suggests that something is seriously amiss and needs to be rethought.

I simply can't afford the time it seems to take to master this stuff, and I can't afford to keep screwing up my hours and hours of work.

I give computer classes on complicated software (endnote, occasionally word, etc.) so I'm not altogether cack-handed, but this really is ridiculous! Everytime I try working with Mellel, I am reminded why I stopped before.
KevinR
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Re: Character misbehavior

Post by KevinR »

Further further further

Is it REALLY the case that if you do Find X, Replace all with Y, there is NO UNDO?

Is that good design?
jannuss
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Re: Character misbehavior

Post by jannuss »

Kevin,

As an old computer hand, you know well the rule that the second application of any type is always the hardest to learn. Without realizing it, we all tend to look on the way our first app worked as the "right" way. When the second app does things differently, we call that "wrong."

Since Mellel is the first word processor I've ever used seriously [all others I worked with "ad hoc" without exercising complex features], I find the take on styles just "right" for me. I particularly appreciate the fact that changing a style automatically changes all documents tied to that style set. I fully understand you prefer things differently, however.

Getting back to the bold/italic problem: I didn't mean to imply that you have to define font face variations in the secondary font in order to get them to function in the main font. Of course, that's not the case.
But
Since none of us have been able to duplicate the problem, I still suspect that there is something wrong with the definition of the character style itself. I was wondering if somehow the secondary font was getting in the way of the face changes -- if that turns out to be true, then we definitely have a bug here.

By the way, are you using lists or autotitles in your example -- this could also add to the confusion.

And one more question: is TranslitLSU the only font that gives you this problem. If so, have you considered uninstalling/reinstalling it?

Janet
KevinR
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Re: Character misbehavior

Post by KevinR »

jannuss wrote: Since Mellel is the first word processor I've ever used seriously [all others I worked with "ad hoc" without exercising complex features], I find the take on styles just "right" for me. I particularly appreciate the fact that changing a style automatically changes all documents tied to that style set. I fully understand you prefer things differently, however.
(NOT SHOUTING, JUST SETTING OFF MY COMMENTS). THANKS FOR YOUR IRENIC REPLY. I QUITE UNDERSTAND. BUT SURELY THIS SHOULD BE SETTABLE AS IT IS IN OTHER WORD PROCESSORS?

Getting back to the bold/italic problem: I didn't mean to imply that you have to define font face variations in the secondary font in order to get them to function in the main font. Of course, that's not the case.
IT DOES SEEM TO BE THE CASE. WHEN I CHOSE A SECONDARY FONT THAT HAD ALL 4 FACES (NOT EASY WITH ARABIC FONTS SINCE ITALICS, IN PARTICULAR TENDS TO LOOK RIDICULOUS) THE FUNCTION KEYS ACTED CORRECTLY
But
Since none of us have been able to duplicate the problem, I still suspect that there is something wrong with the definition of the character style itself. I was wondering if somehow the secondary font was getting in the way of the face changes -- if that turns out to be true, then we definitely have a bug here.

By the way, are you using lists or autotitles in your example -- this could also add to the confusion. NOPE

And one more question: is TranslitLSU the only font that gives you this problem. If so, have you considered uninstalling/reinstalling it?

Janet
NO THAT'S NOT THE CASE. OF COURSE I'M GUN-SHY NOW ABOUT MESSING WITH THE PARAGRAPH AND CHARACTERS MENUS (AS OPPOSED TO PALETTES), SINCE I'M UNWILLING TO SPEND TIME ON MY VARIOUS DOCS REDOING THEM.

ONCE MORE, THANKS FOR THE TIME AND ATTENTION YOU'VE GIVEN TO MY LITTLE PROBLEMS. I ASSURE YOU, I COMFORTABLY USE OTHER WPROCESSORS, (SCRIVNER, JUST NOW) AND TRY HARD NOT TO BE PROVINCIAL. I REMAIN CONVINCED THAT MELLEL FUNDAMENTALLY VIOLATES MAC NORMS, IF NOT STANDARDS, AND I DON'T SEE WHY THAT IS DESIRABLE.

KEVIN
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Re: Character misbehavior

Post by jannuss »

KevinR wrote:
jannuss wrote: Getting back to the bold/italic problem: I didn't mean to imply that you have to define font face variations in the secondary font in order to get them to function in the main font. Of course, that's not the case.
IT DOES SEEM TO BE THE CASE. WHEN I CHOSE A SECONDARY FONT THAT HAD ALL 4 FACES (NOT EASY WITH ARABIC FONTS SINCE ITALICS, IN PARTICULAR TENDS TO LOOK RIDICULOUS) THE FUNCTION KEYS ACTED CORRECTLY
But
Since none of us have been able to duplicate the problem, I still suspect that there is something wrong with the definition of the character style itself. I was wondering if somehow the secondary font was getting in the way of the face changes -- if that turns out to be true, then we definitely have a bug here.
Sounds like a bug to me -- whether the bug is in Mellel or the fonts [of some combination of the two] is the real question.

I suggest you send a copy of the test file with a brief explanation of the problem to support-at-redlers.com

Janet
jb
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Re: Character misbehavior

Post by jb »

KevinR wrote:Further further
I just want to express my frustration with this whole setup. It is "powerful" but it is absurd. Trying on my test file to check the theory about secondary font setting, I changed "normal." Without asking, that change has been applied to all the other mellel files I have with "normal" without asking? How stupid is that?
Preserve Document Styles?
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KevinR
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Re: Character misbehavior

Post by KevinR »

Thank you very much. Very helpful. I swear I've read through the guide. Really!
Kevin
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