RtL paragraph orientation -- style set question

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jannuss
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RtL paragraph orientation -- style set question

Post by jannuss » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:38 am

The paragraph style set includes a direction orientation arrow [bottom middle of the window].
BUT
Selecting a new paragraph style doesn't appear to change the orientation.

Info: I'm running Mellel 2.7.3 (build 2) under OS 10.6.2, I have the Binding Direction of my documents set to RtL

I have a paragraph style named Main with the orientation arrow set for RtL.
I have a paragraph style named Flat English with the orientation arrow set for LtR.

When I switch between Main and Flat English, all the paragraph attributes change appropriately except for paragraph orientation. This happens in new documents and in existing documents.

???

Note: in the past I had a bug in some of my documents that caused all my sections to orient LtR even though my document was RtL. Could this be another bug?

donb
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Re: RtL paragraph orientation -- style set question

Post by donb » Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:56 am

From your message, it sounds as though you want to have a paragraph style of English language text that goes from left to right, and another paragraph style of English language text that goes from right to left. The direction changing arrow is not meant for that sort of thing. Its use is specifically for when certain problems arise when you want to incorporate a right to left passage written in a right to left type of language such as Arabic, inside a left to right text such as English or French.

Its practical use is mostly limited to very special situations where Mellel might be confused as to which language you intend when you are inserting numbers or punctuation marks.

If you take a look at the direction changing arrow section in my tutorial, I give an illustration of how the direction arrow works when used exclusively with a left to right type of language. In such an instance it affects the positioning of lines, not the direction taken by words etc.

Perhaps you meant something completely different and I have totally misunderstood what you have in mind. But as your message stands at the moment, there seems to be in it a confusion between language selection [which in Mellel is accomplished by choosing the flag in the flag-menu along with use of the Secondary Font palette] and direction of text unrelated to choice of language.

Don Broadribb

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Re: RtL paragraph orientation -- style set question

Post by jannuss » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:57 am

Sorry, Don, I didn't explain myself very well.

I have the default Binding direction of my documents set to Right-to-Left and most of my paragraph styles also have the orientation arrow set at Right-to-Left. Most of my character styles are defined with a main English font and a secondary Hebrew font. When I want to create a Left-to-Right paragraph, I click the orientation button on the top of the Mellel window manually and everything works as you describe.

BUT

A problem occurs when I want to create an English-only Left-to-Right document. For this purpose I've defined a paragraph style named Flat English with the orientation arrow going Left-to-Right and an character style (also named Flat English) with only a main font. However, when I select paragraph style Flat English, the orientation of my document is not switched to LtR. I have to switch it manually.

My question: what is the function of the orientation button in the paragraph style definition window, if it doesn't switch orientation?

Janet

Oh, and by the way, what is the function of the direction arrow it it is not designed to switch orientation?

The problem you describe (special direction changing punctuation) is dealt with in other ways by Mellel.

donb
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Re: RtL paragraph orientation -- style set question

Post by donb » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:03 am

Right you are. I have done some experimentation and it is clear that the direction setting icon in the paragraph set up dialogue is not reflected in the direction setting icon of Mellel proper, which means that there definitely is a bug in this, and I strongly suggest you send a bug report to the Mellel developers.

If you set up a style set with a new page layout in which the direction is set as right to left, this should make some of the problem, at least, disappear. You might name the new page style "R to L", which can henceforth be chosen when necessary from the Layout Menu. If the font you use for the Hebrew text happens to have a nice-looking English character set as well [for example, Ezra SIL which has matching English and Hebrew character sets], then the only concern for you, as far as I can see, would be to ensure that when changing flags you also click the primary Mellel direction icon as well if need arises -- assuming you want matching paragraphs in both languages. (Or if you want to use a different font for English than the one you use for Hebrew, you might think about having two sets of paragraph styles, one for each language. This is not actually necessary, but it might avoid further difficulties arising as you get further into your manuscript.)

Don Broadribb

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Re: RtL paragraph orientation -- style set question

Post by jannuss » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:33 am

donb wrote:Right you are. I have done some experimentation and it is clear that the direction setting icon in the paragraph set up dialogue is not reflected in the direction setting icon of Mellel proper, which means that there definitely is a bug in this, and I strongly suggest you send a bug report to the Mellel developers.
OK, will do.

Actually, there are so many different ways that we tend to mix RtL and LtR languages inside the text that switching the orientation manually makes sense -- I'd need a dozen paragraph styles or more to cover them all.

My problem is when I try to create a document that is totally LtR (with my binding direction set to RtL).

Janet

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Re: RtL paragraph orientation -- style set question

Post by rpcameron » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:23 pm

jannuss wrote:[My problem is when I try to create a document that is totally LtR (with my binding direction set to RtL).
Janet, this seems to be where the problem lies. May I ask, why would you have a RTL-bound document that is entirely LTR? It seems that a LTR document ought to be bound LTR. I imagine if you changed this setting you'd find most of your problems go away.

(As a corollary, have you tried doing a document that is entirely RTL with the binding set as LTR? Do you notice problems with this? Do the RTL document with LTR-binding mirror the problems you are having with a LTR document with RTL-binding? If so, then I'm not sure there is a problem/bug, but rather a mismatch of settings. If however you have no issues with RTL documents with LTR-binding, but LTR documents with RTL-binding do have problems, then there is a bug.)
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Re: RtL paragraph orientation -- style set question

Post by jannuss » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:20 pm

Sorry, Patrick, you are not hitting the mark.

90% of my documents are RtL documents, so, naturally, I have my default binding direction set to RtL.

The problem arises with the remaining 10%. All I would like is that when I select my English-only paragraph style (with the orientation button defined as LtR) that Mellel switches direction to LtR. It doesn't. I have to make the change manually. Once I do so, everything works correctly.

I agree with Don: this is a bug.

By the way, I have created RtL documents with the binding direction set to LtR -- it was a mistake -- and everything worked OK.

As I understand it, the function of the binding direction is to supply a default when no other options have yet been selected. For example, when I open a new document, Mellel assumes it is a RtL document (according to the RtL binding direction). Similarly, if I open a new Section, it is assumed to be RtL.

Janet

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Re: RtL paragraph orientation -- style set question

Post by rpcameron » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:49 am

jannuss wrote:All I would like is that when I select my English-only paragraph style (with the orientation button defined as LtR) that Mellel switches direction to LtR. It doesn't. I have to make the change manually. Once I do so, everything works correctly.

I agree with Don: this is a bug.

By the way, I have created RtL documents with the binding direction set to LtR -- it was a mistake -- and everything worked OK.

As I understand it, the function of the binding direction is to supply a default when no other options have yet been selected. For example, when I open a new document, Mellel assumes it is a RtL document (according to the RtL binding direction). Similarly, if I open a new Section, it is assumed to be RtL.
Ah, thank you for the clarification. I only use LTR-binding, so this issue does not present itself; I only use RTL in isolation. You are definitely correct then, this is a bug. Send an email to RedleX, and hopefully they will register it as so. Eyal (who seems to field most of the support emails) is usually quite prompt with a response.

[Totally OT: I have been looking more and more at the software I use regularly, and seeing the idiosyncrasies between each of them makes me want to re-enter software development all over again!]
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Re: RtL paragraph orientation -- style set question

Post by monstordh » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:40 am

This thread is 8 years old, but yet I still have the same problem as the one described here. Has this issue ever been addressed?
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