3.0 Wish List

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rpcameron
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Re: 3.0 Wish List

Post by rpcameron » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:39 am

Cavi wrote:P.S, why there is no fake italic option??
Because fake italics are a travesty and should never have been allowed. They are created by using an algorithm to skew or sheer the characters, without regard for the distortion of the shapes is may cause, how it affects the flow of the text and the eye, and can create characters are streams of text that can become difficult to read.

If italics are important to your work, then use a face that has true and proper italics. If they don't matter, then use whichever font you choose and underline the portions that would be italicized, just as we did with typewriters.

However, the idea of using true italics when available and creating "fake italics" when they are not should not be put into practice. It is actually useful to be told that a particular face does not have an italic form available, and therefore can assist in the choosing of a face better suited to the project.
— Robert Cameron

Cavi
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Re: 3.0 Wish List

Post by Cavi » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:02 pm

Hi rpcameron.

The problem is that in academy some of the lecturer demands specific font. in this case face italic can help a lot.

Word and Nisus offers fake italic, I really wish to have this option in Mellel.

jannuss
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Re: 3.0 Wish List

Post by jannuss » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:09 pm

The fact that WORD offers an option is not necessarily a recommendation!

Cavi
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Re: 3.0 Wish List

Post by Cavi » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:57 pm

I know, but as I say, some times I have no choice and I must use specific font. In this kind of cases I will be happy if Mellel will have fake italic

ahankinson
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Re: 3.0 Wish List

Post by ahankinson » Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:09 am

It's my experience that:

a) All the fonts that anyone "demands" will have bold and italic available, and,
b) Anyone who demands that a certain font is used doesn't know a thing about typography, and can barely tell the difference between serif & sans-serif. If you substituted Times New Roman for Garamond or a similar font they wouldn't be able to tell the difference. (As long as it isn't Zapfino, Comic Sans or Marker Felt, which is what I suspect that rule is supposed to prevent...)

You could also set up a character variation for Italic that uses a different font. I've done that before with Lucida Grande, which doesn't have an italic face -- set it to Verdana, and no one will know the difference.

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Re: 3.0 Wish List

Post by nicka » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:32 am

I'm sure ahankinson is right. If your lecturer is demanding that you use a typeface that doesn't have italics and nonetheless expects you to use italics, then he doesn't know enough about fonts to notice a clever substitution.

Out of interest, though, what are the italic-less fonts that you have been required to use, Cavi? It's a bit weird, because fonts that are suitable for setting extended text (rather than headings, say, or other display use) all come with italics, in my experience.

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Re: 3.0 Wish List

Post by Cavi » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:51 am

Friends, you are absolutely right, I agree everything you say (I agree that lecture that demand specific font without italic don't no nothing also =] ), but even if sometimes the outcome will not be so good, it will be good if this option will be available. go to a lecture and tell him "There is no italic option for 'David' font" it's not an option (he will tell me "use Word").

Until now I manage to avoid from the use of italics. but it will be easier to have this option.

P.S, ahankinson, I thought also to use italic from another font but I can't...

Thanks! :D

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Re: 3.0 Wish List

Post by nicka » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:27 am

But ahankinson's point (and mine) was that you don't have to tell your lecturer that there are no italics in his chosen typeface. Just substitute another typeface entirely, either for the italics, or for the whole lot. By the way, you still haven't said what the problematic typeface is.

You should have no trouble writing in Mellel with the plan text in one face and the italics from another face entirely, as long as you are using character style variations (and not cmd-i) to get the italics. If that makes no sense to you, let us know and we'll walk you through it.

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Re: 3.0 Wish List

Post by ozean » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:50 am

Cavi wrote:… tell him "There is no italic option for 'David' font" it's not an option …
I guess the font is called David, i.e. it is a Hebrew font?

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Re: 3.0 Wish List

Post by jannuss » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:57 am

ozean wrote:
Cavi wrote:… tell him "There is no italic option for 'David' font" it's not an option …
I guess the font is called David, i.e. it is a Hebrew font?
Italic is available for David, but usually not for free.

In any case, using Italic faces with Hebrew is problematic:. I usually prefer changing font or going to a "handwriting" font for emphasis.

And, forgive me for saying so, but of all the commonly used Hebrew fonts, I find David the least readable.

Janet

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Re: 3.0 Wish List

Post by nicka » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:07 pm

I'd never heard of a typeface called 'David' so I thought 'David' was being used as placeholder, like 'Foo', or 'Fred'. Just my ignorance...

Anyway, the italic is available here. Cheaper than Word, and if you get it, you'll be only one really obeying the instruction to use David (the guys using Word are using a weird skewed derivative of it for their italics). But there may be a cheaper (free) solution -- see below.

As Janet says, it doesn't seem like a great choice for readability, at least for the roman letters (I can't tell with the Hebrew). It looks like the Hebrew letters (and the numerals) are in a semi-calligraphic, script font, but the roman letters seem to be in a 'modern'/'romantic' style, very like Bodoni (can you confirm this, Janet?). I can't believe that the mixture is very harmonious. Anyway,if you used Bodoni or something similar like Didot, or Baskerville, as your roman font I doubt that your lecturer would notice the difference.

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Re: 3.0 Wish List

Post by jannuss » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:36 pm

David, like Times New Roman, suffers from over-popularity.
There are too many versions available, so you never quite know what to expect when you use it.

It's a classic Hebrew font with heavy, old-fashioned glyphs which are preferred by many people when quoting classic texts.

I've never looked at the Latin characters before -- I don't know anyone who uses them.

Janet

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Re: 3.0 Wish List

Post by flooce » Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:00 am

THANKS for: fixing open-type small caps

Two small wishes:
  • Letter-Spacing. Usefull when setting headlines in all caps, as then one is supposed to loosen the space in between characters to increase readability.
  • (EDIT: Glyph-Scaling) Option to expand (stretch) and contract (condense) letters
Thanks
Last edited by flooce on Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

DylanMuir
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Re: 3.0 Wish List

Post by DylanMuir » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:59 pm

Glyph-scaling and letterspacing would open Mellel up to the possibility of a MUCH nicer justification engine than it currently has, probably second only to InDesign and LaTEX.

DRM

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Re: 3.0 Wish List

Post by flooce » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:23 am

DylanMuir wrote:Glyph-scaling and letterspacing would open Mellel up to the possibility of a MUCH nicer justification engine than it currently has, probably second only to InDesign and LaTEX.

DRM
Glad to find resonance with my wish.

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