Exporting diacritics

For all things Mellel

Moderators: redlers, Eyal Redler, Ori Redler

dochomer
Got the styles thing figured out
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:22 am

Exporting diacritics

Post by dochomer » Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:13 am

Dear all,

as Mellel users, we unfortunately still are surrounded by MS Word. As we know, the best way to export Mellel files is to export in '.rtf' file format and then change the extension to '.doc'. This seems to work quite smoothly in English. Things are getting much more complicated, however, writing in languages that use diacritics like circumflex accents, accent graves, acute accents, cedillas, diaeresis, and tildes.

As most publishers require text readable in Word, the export from Mellel to Word is still a problem since these diacritics are not exported correctly by the above-mentioned way. Is there a knack that makes unnecessary a troublesome correction of all diacritics in Word before ultimately submitting them?

Thanks in advance for your help.

nicka
Knows everything, can prove it
Posts: 674
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:55 pm
Location: Oslo
Contact:

Post by nicka » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:23 pm

these diacritics are not exported correctly by the above-mentioned way
That's not my experience. I just created a Mellel document with e acute, o with circumflex, i with two dots, c with cedilla and a with grave accent, just using the standard Mac method of producing them with option-key dead-key combinations. I exported to rtf and opened in Word 2004. Everything was displayed perfectly. It also looks as expected in NeoOffice 2.0.

I don't doubt that you have found some problems, but since they are not completely general, I think we need some specifics to track them down.
Which accented characters are giving you problems? Which version of Word is being used to open them, on which operating system? Have you tried opening the exported documents on your Mac -- in Word 2004 or NeoOffice -- before sending them to check that they are OK at that stage?

The problem could be that the version of Word being used does not support Unicode, or that the font you use is not present on the system of the person opening the file and Word fails to find another font with the right character in it, or something else. We can probably track it down.

Tom Gewecke
Read the guide, knows everything
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Exporting diacritics

Post by Tom Gewecke » Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:08 pm

dochomer wrote:Things are getting much more complicated, however, writing in languages that use diacritics like circumflex accents, accent graves, acute accents, cedillas, diaeresis, and tildes... since these diacritics are not exported correctly by the above-mentioned way.
I also am unaware of this problem. Can you specify the languages you are talking about? I can see that there could be font issues if decomposed instead of precomposed versions of accented characters were used, for example in Vietnamese, or if the language only uses decomposed accents, or if the other end is not using Unicode at all or using fonts with a very limited coverage. But otherwise the accented characters such as one uses for European languages should translate ok.

jannuss
Knows everything, can prove it
Posts: 811
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:35 am
Location: Israel

Post by jannuss » Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:48 pm

I also have no difficulty exporting "rtf" files [and changing or not changing the extension to "doc"].

I write Hebrew text with NIKUD (vowel marks) and TAAMIM (cantillation marks). As long as the WORD/PC user has the correct fonts, he sees the text correctly.

The trick, then, is to agree on a standard set of fonts.
I use mostly the free Unicode fonts from academia: Cardo, Ezra SIL SR, and SBL Hebrew.
Sometimes I'm forced to fall back on Lucida GRande and Times New Roman -- neither Unicode nor very attractive, but common enough that most PC users receive them correctly.

Janet

Tom Gewecke
Read the guide, knows everything
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:56 pm
Contact:

Post by Tom Gewecke » Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:03 pm

jannuss wrote: Lucida GRande and Times New Roman -- neither Unicode
These are both Unicode fonts.

dochomer
Got the styles thing figured out
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:22 am

Post by dochomer » Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:51 pm

Thank you for your quick replies. As I can see from your comments, it is all rather my fault. I wrote a text in Portuguese with ´, `, ~, ç and ü. The font is 'Times New Roman'. Then I exported it to '.doc' and opened it on an old Windows 98 system running Word 97. There the above-mentioned problems appeared. From your comments, I conclude that this problem does not exist on newer versions of Word. So, I apologize for a hasty judgement. As I am almost complete out of the Microsoft world, I will now have to see how to feel absolutely certain that my exported document will really be readable in Word before submitting it

Many thanks to all of you.

jannuss
Knows everything, can prove it
Posts: 811
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:35 am
Location: Israel

Post by jannuss » Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:56 pm

Tom Gewecke wrote:
jannuss wrote: Lucida GRande and Times New Roman -- neither Unicode
These are both Unicode fonts.
FontBook says that both are True Type.
Does that mean that I have old versions? I thought these fonts installed with OSX.

Janet

Tom Gewecke
Read the guide, knows everything
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:56 pm
Contact:

Post by Tom Gewecke » Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:52 pm

jannuss wrote:FontBook says that both are True Type.
Does that mean that I have old versions? I thought these fonts installed with OSX.
No, you don't have old versions. Yes, they are installed by OS X and all fonts Apple provides for OS X are Unicode fonts. "True Type" has nothing to do with the encoding.

Timotheus
Knows everything, can prove it
Posts: 281
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:36 pm

Post by Timotheus » Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:28 pm

But are you sure your publisher does not accept rtf? Many publishers nowadays do! No publisher or journal ever refused the things I wrote in Mellel and then converted into rtf.

dochomer
Got the styles thing figured out
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:22 am

Post by dochomer » Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:42 pm

Timotheus,

thank you for your hint. You seem to have experience with that. A journal in which I pretend to publish requires "preferentially Word or Word Perfect [!]". Another journal wants a text "saved as an MSWord-readable document file". Does this include .rtf?

Thanks in advance.

Tom Gewecke
Read the guide, knows everything
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:56 pm
Contact:

Post by Tom Gewecke » Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:25 pm

dochomer wrote: Then I exported it to '.doc' and opened it on an old Windows 98 system running Word 97. ... I conclude that this problem does not exist on newer versions of Word.
Yes, I think Win98/Word97 probably can't read Unicode .rtf correctly, regardless of fonts. Anything running on Win2K/WinXP should work ok.

Timotheus
Knows everything, can prove it
Posts: 281
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:36 pm

Post by Timotheus » Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:57 pm

@ dochomer: why don't you just ask them? All I know is that in the last few years I wrote in Mellel a whole series of articles, all of them with a host of diacritical signs (à, é, ï etc.) and footnotes, which I simply converted into rtf before sending them to various journals and publishers in various European countries. No journal or publisher ever made any objection, and the proofs I received were always very decent. So I don't think the rtf-format was problematic for them; if this had been the case, they would certainly have told me, and the proofs would have shown it.

eleuteruiz
Knows everything, can prove it
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:43 pm

Post by eleuteruiz » Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:56 pm

Tom Gewecke wrote:Yes, I think Win98/Word97 probably can't read Unicode .rtf correctly, regardless of fonts. Anything running on Win2K/WinXP should work ok.
Thank you for this explanation. I am having the same problem when sharing rtf converted docs with some pc users with Win98.

Is there a solution for this? I keep sending them both the rtf file and a pdf version of it to have all characters in a readable form. But it is a little bit complicated to add corrections or changes to a text in which they don't see correctly displayed letters with diacritics.
Eleuterio

jannuss
Knows everything, can prove it
Posts: 811
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:35 am
Location: Israel

Post by jannuss » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:48 am

Tom Gewecke wrote:No, you don't have old versions. Yes, they are installed by OS X and all fonts Apple provides for OS X are Unicode fonts. "True Type" has nothing to do with the encoding.
OK, I'm showing my total ignorance here.

My confusion is between Unicode and OpenType (I think).

Lucida Grande & Times New Roman do not behave like OpenType fonts. For example, the placement of vowel marks in Hebrew is not correct.

And why doesn't FontBook make the distinction.

Janet

frvs
Knows everything, can prove it
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: Brussels, sometimes Lisbon

Re: Exporting diacritics

Post by frvs » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:04 am

dochomer wrote:Dear all,

as Mellel users, we unfortunately still are surrounded by MS Word. As we know, the best way to export Mellel files is to export in '.rtf' file format and then change the extension to '.doc'. This seems to work quite smoothly in English. Things are getting much more complicated, however, writing in languages that use diacritics like circumflex accents, accent graves, acute accents, cedillas, diaeresis, and tildes.
I have personal experience of the trouble you indicate. The problem is that the method you use is not "the best," for it screws diacritics. Stop doing that. Instead, rtf export from Mellel. Open the document in Word. Save it in doc format within Word. Then send it. You should have no problems this way. Good luck.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests