"Small caps" vs. "All small caps"

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mc7121
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"Small caps" vs. "All small caps"

Post by mc7121 »

I'm sorry for this probably stupid question, but in order to use small caps, the Mellel Guide says:
Select All Small Caps from the OpenType pop-up menu in the Character appearance palette
When I do so, all letters are small caps - as this option implies. However, I can't find a way to reproduce the example in the "small caps" chapter in the Mellel guide where the first letter is a bigger cap and the following letters are smaller caps.
I use the Minion Pro font that should support OpenType small caps.

Would anybody please be so kind and tell me how to reproduce the example in the guide?


Regards
Marc
Marco
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Minion Pro vs. Cardo

Post by Marco »

I asked the same thing last July. The subject was: "Small caps with Minion Pro".

It looks like different opentype fonts respond differently, when you choose "All small caps" in Mellel.

Try the free font Cardo: you will see the difference results that the same Mellel command. Last July Ori answered my post with these words:
It seems to be a common feature to all Adobe OpenType fonts and I cannot determine whether Adobe is super-lazy here or if the creator of Cardo is super smart....
If you work with a font that behaves like Cardo you can easily obtain the result that you desire. I am not suggesting that you use it instead of MinionPro: MinionPro is more beautiful, and it has italics, that I sorely miss in Cardo. Rather, I suggest that you should compare the different behaviour of the two fonts. I found that very informative.

The only way I could find to obtain the same result with MinionPro is to assign the "Base" style variation (that is, F1) to the first letter, the one that you want to show in Capitals.

However, the Find/Replace is now so good, that you can manipulate the text so that it shows properly even with MinionPro.

The process is:

1. Open Find/Replace
2. In the "find" box choose: Insert element / Custom / A to Z
3. Apply to "find" the character style variation for "all small caps"
4. be sure that the box for "ignore case" is unchecked
5. In the "replace" box choose Insert element / Backreference
6. Apply to "replace" the character style variation for "Base" (usually F1)
7. Proceed to replace. I suggest that you use "repalce and find", so that you can check that the substituion works according to your need.

I hope this helps.

Marco
mc7121
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Re: Minion Pro vs. Cardo

Post by mc7121 »

Marco wrote:I asked the same thing last July. The subject was: "Small caps with Minion Pro".

It looks like different opentype fonts respond differently, when you choose "All small caps" in Mellel.

Try the free font Cardo: you will see the difference results that the same Mellel command. Last July Ori answered my post with these words:
It seems to be a common feature to all Adobe OpenType fonts and I cannot determine whether Adobe is super-lazy here or if the creator of Cardo is super smart....
If you work with a font that behaves like Cardo you can easily obtain the result that you desire. I am not suggesting that you use it instead of MinionPro: MinionPro is more beautiful, and it has italics, that I sorely miss in Cardo. Rather, I suggest that you should compare the different behaviour of the two fonts. I found that very informative.

The only way I could find to obtain the same result with MinionPro is to assign the "Base" style variation (that is, F1) to the first letter, the one that you want to show in Capitals.

However, the Find/Replace is now so good, that you can manipulate the text so that it shows properly even with MinionPro.

The process is:

1. Open Find/Replace
2. In the "find" box choose: Insert element / Custom / A to Z
3. Apply to "find" the character style variation for "all small caps"
4. be sure that the box for "ignore case" is unchecked
5. In the "replace" box choose Insert element / Backreference
6. Apply to "replace" the character style variation for "Base" (usually F1)
7. Proceed to replace. I suggest that you use "repalce and find", so that you can check that the substituion works according to your need.

I hope this helps.

Marco
Hi Marco,

thank you for your reply. You seem to be absolutely right. Obviously this phenomenon is related to the font. Cardo does it right, whereas all the OpenType fonts I have don't. I just wonder how one is supposed to use small caps with the popular Minion Pro. The search and replace solution doesn't work well for me because I want to use small caps in bibliography and this is a pretty dynamic area.

Regards
Marc
Marco
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small caps in bibliography

Post by Marco »

Hi Marc:

Bibliography is where I use small caps, too, and where I figured out how to do that with MinionPro. I guess you use small cpas for surnames.

You have two chances.

The slowest one is the most obvius: you can write the write the first letter of the surname in the base style variation, then you hit the "small caps" style variation and go on with small caps until you finish the surname.

This could be a nuisance. Usually, I write the whole surname, then I select it, in order to set the style variation to small caps.

This is where the substitution comes in as the solution. You can wait until you have finished writing your bibliography or footnotes. In the process, you get the whole surnames in small cpas, which is not what you need. But you know that you can fix that later, that it is a problem with MinionPro, but your your capital first letter are there, even if they are not displayed. When you finish the dynamic process of writing, you can easily make a global substitution.

That worked for me.
mc7121
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Re: small caps in bibliography

Post by mc7121 »

Marco wrote:Hi Marc:

Bibliography is where I use small caps, too, and where I figured out how to do that with MinionPro. I guess you use small cpas for surnames.

You have two chances.

The slowest one is the most obvius: you can write the write the first letter of the surname in the base style variation, then you hit the "small caps" style variation and go on with small caps until you finish the surname.

This could be a nuisance. Usually, I write the whole surname, then I select it, in order to set the style variation to small caps.

This is where the substitution comes in as the solution. You can wait until you have finished writing your bibliography or footnotes. In the process, you get the whole surnames in small cpas, which is not what you need. But you know that you can fix that later, that it is a problem with MinionPro, but your your capital first letter are there, even if they are not displayed. When you finish the dynamic process of writing, you can easily make a global substitution.

That worked for me.
Thank you for your help. I still don't know why such an "official" font like Minion behaves that way but this seems to be the only way.
Would be helpful if Mellel had fake small caps. They might not look perfect but they would at least provide an efficient workaround.

Regards
Marc
eleuteruiz
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Re: small caps in bibliography

Post by eleuteruiz »

mc7121 wrote: Would be helpful if Mellel had fake small caps. They might not look perfect but they would at least provide an efficient workaround.
I already has, in version 2.1.2.
Eleuterio
mc7121
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Re: small caps in bibliography

Post by mc7121 »

eleuteruiz wrote:
mc7121 wrote: Would be helpful if Mellel had fake small caps. They might not look perfect but they would at least provide an efficient workaround.
I already has, in version 2.1.2.
Thank you very much for that hint! I really didn't realize that and now I'm a little embarassed. :oops:

Regards
Marc
transalpin
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Re: Minion Pro vs. Cardo

Post by transalpin »

mc7121 wrote:Obviously this phenomenon is related to the font. Cardo does it right, whereas all the OpenType fonts I have don't.
No, it’s a Mellel bug. Try Minion Pro’s small caps in TextEdit (CMD+T > Typography palette)! There are two options: “Small Capitals” and “Small Capitals from Capitals”. Whereas in Textedit small caps work as expected, Mellel seems to apply both letter case options at the same time.
mc7121
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Re: Minion Pro vs. Cardo

Post by mc7121 »

transalpin wrote:
mc7121 wrote:Obviously this phenomenon is related to the font. Cardo does it right, whereas all the OpenType fonts I have don't.
No, it’s a Mellel bug. Try Minion Pro’s small caps in TextEdit (CMD+T > Typography palette)! There are two options: “Small Capitals” and “Small Capitals from Capitals”. Whereas in Textedit small caps work as expected, Mellel seems to apply both letter case options at the same time.
You're absolutely right. Textedit does it right! I t would have been hard to believe, that a font like Minion Pro has a bug.

So I'm curious to get feedback from the developers on this topic.

Regards
Marc
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Post by rpcameron »

Perhaps it's not a bug, but the way the Mellel accesses the OpenType tables. If there are two options for small caps available in the typography palette for standard NSTextEdit controls, it stands to reason that the feature is available in the font. Just like the standard OS X typography palette allows for arbitrary selection of alternate glyphs for fonts that support it, perhaps this is the same.

Mellel's OpenType implementation has a pre-set list of features that it populates from the font (the "OpenType" dropdown menu); OS X's typography palette is dynamically generated on a per-font basis. I believe this is perhaps due to Mellel reading in the "Small Capitals from Capitals" and treated that as "Small Caps" in Mellel.

Therefore, I propose this is not a bug in Minion Pro, but rather a flaw in Mellel's OpenType implementation.
— Robert Cameron
transalpin
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Post by transalpin »

rpcameron wrote:Perhaps it's not a bug, but the way the Mellel accesses the OpenType tables.
Definitely not.

I’ve created a poll. VOTE!
http://forum.redlers.com/viewtopic.php?t=827
rpcameron
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Post by rpcameron »

transalpin wrote:
rpcameron wrote:Perhaps it's not a bug, but the way the Mellel accesses the OpenType tables.
Definitely not.
... Just because Mellel does not behave in the manner one expects, that does not mean it's not behaving in the way it's supposed to. Mellel's entry for small caps in the OpenType feature dropdown says "All Small Caps", and that is exactly what Mellel does: converts all characters entered into small caps.
— Robert Cameron
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Re: Minion Pro vs. Cardo

Post by Ori Redler »

transalpin wrote:
mc7121 wrote:Obviously this phenomenon is related to the font. Cardo does it right, whereas all the OpenType fonts I have don't.
No, it’s a Mellel bug. Try Minion Pro’s small caps in TextEdit (CMD+T > Typography palette)! There are two options: “Small Capitals” and “Small Capitals from Capitals”. Whereas in Textedit small caps work as expected, Mellel seems to apply both letter case options at the same time.
Not exactly a bug. In fact, not a bug at all.
Mellel does this the way this is supposed to be done in OpenType: All Small Caps means All Small caps. The fact that some fonts (e.g. Cardo, Garogier) do something differently here does not mean that they do the right thing, of course.

The reason why TextEdit works differently here is simply because it contains an "override" for the small-caps instructions with a capital letter, that's all.

Still, if you need to have the upper case as capitals and the lower case as small caps, all you need to do is apply "All small caps" OpenType feature and the Small Caps feature. The result is just what you want... Still, two things to bear in mind:
A. This "double capping" makes the font appear smaller. You'll have to compensate for that.
B. Mellel uses the small caps style characters with the capitals. Typographically, that's perhaps better, but YMMV.
Ori Redler from RedleX
macsailor
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Re: Minion Pro vs. Cardo

Post by macsailor »

Ori Redler wrote: A. This "double capping" makes the font appear smaller. You'll have to compensate for that.
Would it be possible to make the Mellel to take care of the "compensation" automatically, instead of having to do it myself?
Peter Edwardsson
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transalpin
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Re: Minion Pro vs. Cardo

Post by transalpin »

Ori Redler wrote:Mellel does this the way this is supposed to be done in OpenType: All Small Caps means All Small caps.
I’m sorry, the German localization (“Kapitälchen”) doesn’t reflect the “all”.

Nonetheless, I feel that this is not the way most users would want it to work.
Maybe you could add an “All Lower Case” option, and in combination with “Small Caps” it would amount to “All Small Caps”.
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