Cross Reference
Moderators: Eyal Redler, redlers, Ori Redler
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Cross Reference
A bit of a "status report" on the situation with Cross referencing.
As laid out in more-or-less vague terms, we've had some pretty interesting plans here. I'd like to detail a bit about what's going on, what's in and what's not with this feature.
A cross reference is a reference to a place in a document (or anywhere, for that matter). To be sure, anyone can refer to anything by simply typing "see page 12" (if one wishes to refer to something on page 12), but a cross reference allows you to refer to a point in the text and have that reference change dynamically when that point changes position (e.g., when it is no longer on page 12 but on page 13, 14 or 112).
Mellel 2.5 will allow you to refer to three types of things:
A. A bookmark -- a place holder or a bookmark you've set in the text (by choosing Insert > Cross Reference > Bookmark).
B. An element in the text -- auto-titles, for example, can be referred to. For example, in the image below, the reference (see "Lorem Ipsum") refers to the auto-title.
C. An abstract reference to a "virtual target" that may not even exist in the text. For example, a reference to a part of the document that have not been written yet.
The key to a good cross-referencing system is efficient referencing. To enable that, when you enter a reference, you can view all the bookmarks you've entered, and all the potential targets (e.g., all auto-titles may be targets for reference).
To enter a reference, all you need to do is click on one (either an existing one or a potential one) in the list in the Reference entry dialogue (You'll see it "in context" of the text it's in, to make selection easy) and click OK and you'll have a reference to the page number of the selected target.
But, of course, most of you would like to do more than that. For example, sometimes you wish to refer to the text of an auto-title (as seen above), or to a page range of the auto-title (as in referring to a whole chapter), or you may want to refer to a footnote number, and so on. That is possible too, of course.
But, of course, that's not all. You may also want to take the reference to a higher level and refer not just to the place the bookmark is, but also refer to it in relative terms. The bookmark may be above or below the reference, on the page before or after, on the opposite page, etc. You can do that too.
Finally, it would be rather tedious entering all those elements over and over again. That may not be a problem if you only wish to have "see page XX" type of references, but if you wish to have "See pages XX-YY (chapter "ZZZZ")" type of references, that may turn out to be quite a handful. To avoid that, you can simply save the reference format for posterity (or the next time around) and re-use it anytime you want.
There's more, of course. You can, for example, control the way the reference appears in the text, having it appear using a different style than the rest of the text, tying of virtual targets to a real place in text (once you're written the chapter), and more.
Hope this serves as a general survey of this feature.
As laid out in more-or-less vague terms, we've had some pretty interesting plans here. I'd like to detail a bit about what's going on, what's in and what's not with this feature.
A cross reference is a reference to a place in a document (or anywhere, for that matter). To be sure, anyone can refer to anything by simply typing "see page 12" (if one wishes to refer to something on page 12), but a cross reference allows you to refer to a point in the text and have that reference change dynamically when that point changes position (e.g., when it is no longer on page 12 but on page 13, 14 or 112).
Mellel 2.5 will allow you to refer to three types of things:
A. A bookmark -- a place holder or a bookmark you've set in the text (by choosing Insert > Cross Reference > Bookmark).
B. An element in the text -- auto-titles, for example, can be referred to. For example, in the image below, the reference (see "Lorem Ipsum") refers to the auto-title.
C. An abstract reference to a "virtual target" that may not even exist in the text. For example, a reference to a part of the document that have not been written yet.
The key to a good cross-referencing system is efficient referencing. To enable that, when you enter a reference, you can view all the bookmarks you've entered, and all the potential targets (e.g., all auto-titles may be targets for reference).
To enter a reference, all you need to do is click on one (either an existing one or a potential one) in the list in the Reference entry dialogue (You'll see it "in context" of the text it's in, to make selection easy) and click OK and you'll have a reference to the page number of the selected target.
But, of course, most of you would like to do more than that. For example, sometimes you wish to refer to the text of an auto-title (as seen above), or to a page range of the auto-title (as in referring to a whole chapter), or you may want to refer to a footnote number, and so on. That is possible too, of course.
But, of course, that's not all. You may also want to take the reference to a higher level and refer not just to the place the bookmark is, but also refer to it in relative terms. The bookmark may be above or below the reference, on the page before or after, on the opposite page, etc. You can do that too.
Finally, it would be rather tedious entering all those elements over and over again. That may not be a problem if you only wish to have "see page XX" type of references, but if you wish to have "See pages XX-YY (chapter "ZZZZ")" type of references, that may turn out to be quite a handful. To avoid that, you can simply save the reference format for posterity (or the next time around) and re-use it anytime you want.
There's more, of course. You can, for example, control the way the reference appears in the text, having it appear using a different style than the rest of the text, tying of virtual targets to a real place in text (once you're written the chapter), and more.
Hope this serves as a general survey of this feature.
Ori Redler from RedleX
Re: Cross Reference
Sounds interesting, and very helpful for advanced work.
Thanks for the work and the explanation.
So, beta next week, final by end of January?
Thanks for the work and the explanation.
So, beta next week, final by end of January?
Rich
old, slow, and confused...but at least I’m inconsistent!
iMac 27" (10. 13. 8 ) and MBP 13" Retina (10. 13. 8 )
old, slow, and confused...but at least I’m inconsistent!
iMac 27" (10. 13. 8 ) and MBP 13" Retina (10. 13. 8 )
Re: Cross Reference
Credit card is ready; are operators standing by?
Thanks, Ori. Looking forward to 2.5.
Thanks, Ori. Looking forward to 2.5.
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Re: Cross Reference
Simply wonderful. Even better than FrameMaker. Well worth the wait.
Please, don't forget to let the reference text ("See page...") be freely customizable for the different languages and preferences.
Paolo
Please, don't forget to let the reference text ("See page...") be freely customizable for the different languages and preferences.
Paolo
Re: Cross Reference
Thanks for the update, Ori. In your post above, the second image points to “Mellel003.jpg” but I think you’ve planned to show “Mellel004.jpg”.
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Re: Cross Reference
To be sure, and I've corrected this accordingly... That's the hazard of copying and pasting addresses...Mart°n wrote:Thanks for the update, Ori. In your post above, the second image points to “Mellel003.jpg” but I think you’ve planned to show “Mellel004.jpg”.
Ori Redler from RedleX
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Re: Cross Reference
Outdoing FM was certainly something we tried to accomplish. As for "see page..." and so on -- everything is fully customisable. E.g., the Above/Below/previous page/next page is something you can customise to any format you wish to have and also change stuff en route.ptram wrote:Simply wonderful. Even better than FrameMaker. Well worth the wait.
Please, don't forget to let the reference text ("See page...") be freely customizable for the different languages and preferences.
Paolo
Ori Redler from RedleX
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Re: Cross Reference
Great. When do you expect the beta to be out for testing? I'm checking my e-mails once every third second now and I start to get exhaustion by now …Ori Redler wrote:Outdoing FM was certainly something we tried to accomplish. As for "see page..." and so on -- everything is fully customisable. E.g., the Above/Below/previous page/next page is something you can customise to any format you wish to have and also change stuff en route.ptram wrote:Simply wonderful. Even better than FrameMaker. Well worth the wait.
Please, don't forget to let the reference text ("See page...") be freely customizable for the different languages and preferences.
Paolo
Peter Edwardsson
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Re: Cross Reference
I wonder if it would be possible to make x-refs to list elements. Say I have a list
Autotitle A
1. hello
2. bye
Would it be possible to make a reference to, say, element 2 of the list (See Item 2 of Autotitle A) and that the updates the item numbering as one edits the list? I know this is a complicated scenario and it may be very prone to errors, but I would like to know if the developers have thought about this hypothetical use scenario and other users' opinions.
In any case, x-ref functionality sounds very good. I hope it doesn't compromise the overall speed of Mellel and the stability of the file format. Coming from the Redlers I'm sure it doesn't!
Autotitle A
1. hello
2. bye
Would it be possible to make a reference to, say, element 2 of the list (See Item 2 of Autotitle A) and that the updates the item numbering as one edits the list? I know this is a complicated scenario and it may be very prone to errors, but I would like to know if the developers have thought about this hypothetical use scenario and other users' opinions.
In any case, x-ref functionality sounds very good. I hope it doesn't compromise the overall speed of Mellel and the stability of the file format. Coming from the Redlers I'm sure it doesn't!
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Re: Cross Reference
Surely it should say 'Vide Lorum Ipsum'?
B.
B.
Re: Cross Reference
Only to understand better the English, Ori,
When you write Bookmarks, is this refers as well to live URLs inside a Mellel text.
When you write Bookmarks, is this refers as well to live URLs inside a Mellel text.
Re: Cross Reference
Ori - one remark and two questions:
remark: congrats for creating such an awesome app as mellel! and double congrats for the new cross reference feature!! i've been stuck with MS word because i absolutely need that feature in my legal papers and articles (and i'm not the only one, i'd hazard to guess...). i've been checking back on mellel every once in a while, hoping you guys would integrate that feature - seems to me that with v2.5 the time has finally come for me to do the big switch - horray!
question 1 re marginals/recitals: in all my papers and publications, i need to work with "marginals" or "recitals" (i've seen a lot of different terms being used for that in english - in german, it's simply "randziffer" or "randnote"). what i mean is: continous numbering of paragraphs (maybe even with the possibility to leave out certain special paragraphs, e.g. citations, tables or similar), being displayed on the page margin (on the left side for left/even pages and on the right side for right/odd pages), in combination with the ability to reference those "marginal numbers"/"recitals" - and of course automatic updating whenever i insert another paragraph anywhere. here's an example of what i need (made on MS word 2003, and believe me, it took some tinkering...):
[hosted on imageshack, click for larger pic]
so my question: will such thing be possible with the new cross reference feature?
question 2 re indexing: i'm also in desperate need for an index function, by which i mean the ability to mark specific words for indexing in combination with the automatic creation of a list of these marked words with references to their respective page (or even better: to their respective marginal/recital, see question 1).
so my question(s): isn't that kind of functionality very similar to cross referencing...? if so, will that be implemented in v2.5 too? or will i at least be able to mimic such functionality with the cross reference feature, by inserting a list of words at the end of my paper, then searching for occurrences of that word throughout the paper, and entering "bookmarks" with every word i want to reference? will such references to multiple occurences spread out through the paper be possible with the cross reference feature? (i.d., will i be able to cross references like: "Liability.............5, 12, 47, 51-57, 86")
sorry about the load of questions, but you're just really getting my hopes up by mentioning cross referencing...
/s
remark: congrats for creating such an awesome app as mellel! and double congrats for the new cross reference feature!! i've been stuck with MS word because i absolutely need that feature in my legal papers and articles (and i'm not the only one, i'd hazard to guess...). i've been checking back on mellel every once in a while, hoping you guys would integrate that feature - seems to me that with v2.5 the time has finally come for me to do the big switch - horray!
question 1 re marginals/recitals: in all my papers and publications, i need to work with "marginals" or "recitals" (i've seen a lot of different terms being used for that in english - in german, it's simply "randziffer" or "randnote"). what i mean is: continous numbering of paragraphs (maybe even with the possibility to leave out certain special paragraphs, e.g. citations, tables or similar), being displayed on the page margin (on the left side for left/even pages and on the right side for right/odd pages), in combination with the ability to reference those "marginal numbers"/"recitals" - and of course automatic updating whenever i insert another paragraph anywhere. here's an example of what i need (made on MS word 2003, and believe me, it took some tinkering...):
[hosted on imageshack, click for larger pic]
so my question: will such thing be possible with the new cross reference feature?
question 2 re indexing: i'm also in desperate need for an index function, by which i mean the ability to mark specific words for indexing in combination with the automatic creation of a list of these marked words with references to their respective page (or even better: to their respective marginal/recital, see question 1).
so my question(s): isn't that kind of functionality very similar to cross referencing...? if so, will that be implemented in v2.5 too? or will i at least be able to mimic such functionality with the cross reference feature, by inserting a list of words at the end of my paper, then searching for occurrences of that word throughout the paper, and entering "bookmarks" with every word i want to reference? will such references to multiple occurences spread out through the paper be possible with the cross reference feature? (i.d., will i be able to cross references like: "Liability.............5, 12, 47, 51-57, 86")
sorry about the load of questions, but you're just really getting my hopes up by mentioning cross referencing...
/s
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Re: Cross Reference
Sorry for being late, but the answer is short and sweet: yes, it would be possible.aechallu wrote:I wonder if it would be possible to make x-refs to list elements. Say I have a list
Autotitle A
1. hello
2. bye
Would it be possible to make a reference to, say, element 2 of the list (See Item 2 of Autotitle A) and that the updates the item numbering as one edits the list? I know this is a complicated scenario and it may be very prone to errors, but I would like to know if the developers have thought about this hypothetical use scenario and other users' opinions.
In any case, x-ref functionality sounds very good. I hope it doesn't compromise the overall speed of Mellel and the stability of the file format. Coming from the Redlers I'm sure it doesn't!
Ori Redler from RedleX
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Re: Cross Reference
To Question 1 and 2: marginalia and indexing is something we plan to implement. Indexing, rather soon. Marginalia will have to wait a bit. There are similarities in the outward appearance of either to existing features, but at the core they are very different. CR are about targets and references pointing to them, with the main problem keeping references synched to targets. Marginalia is more a layout problem (creating a side column that is related in some manner to the main body of text. Indexing is altogether a different problem, not dissimilar to Table of Content, but more complex (but, happily, easier to implement).samson wrote:Ori - one remark and two questions:
question 1 re marginals/recitals: in all my papers and publications, i need to work with "marginals" or "recitals" (i've seen a lot of different terms being used for that in english - in german, it's simply "randziffer" or "randnote").... so my question: will such thing be possible with the new cross reference feature?
question 2 re indexing: i'm also in desperate need for an index function... isn't that kind of functionality very similar to cross referencing...?
/s
Ori Redler from RedleX
Re: Cross Reference
Thanks for the update ... I'm looking forward to 2.5