[Discussion] Cross referencing

[Nick Sloan]

I also agree that compulsory Word-type styling for links would not be the Mellel way, and that links should have to be explicitly created. The obvious thing would be user-definable Link Styles, which could include "Use surrounding".

With reference to my request for links to external files, I would regard dragging a file to a Mellel document as explicit creation. I envisage the filename being added to the text at the cursor position, in the default Link Style. The name could be changed (to "or look here" or some such) without breaking the link.

[apocryphx]

Sorry, I missed much of the discussion of cross-references until today. However I think one could implement a very felxible mechanism that leaves a lot of flexibility to the user and makes reuse of already existing components within Mellel.

Cross-references can take so many shapes and forms that it is almost impossible to forsee all uses and applications. However, I believe that a general solution can be found if the cross-referencing mechanism is flexible enough.

Three things would be required to implement a general solution:

1.) A (possibly unlimited) number of user definable counters
2.) A text composition mechanism similar to the Autotile feature
3.) A text block marker mechanism for the target

So how would this work? Simply put, the user assigns counters (similar to MS Word) to any object or text. These could be figures, places within text or any other place.
Secondly there has to be a mechanism to mark cross-reference targets in the text.
Thirdly there has to be a mechnism similar to the Autotitle feature where the user can define the cross-reference format made from fixed text, one or more counters and text marked at the target site. So the cross-reference inserted is constructed by mixing fixed user defined text with the values of the counters and marked text.

Here a possible examples:
Legal:
A cross-references are in the form "paragraph xxx, section yyy". To achive this a counter for paragraphs and a counter for sections would be defined by the user. The section counter would be reset for each paragraph. The fixed text is "paragraph ##, section ##" and the numbers would be inserted similar to the Autotiltle feature

Scientific:
A scientific document can have a host of items that would need ot be referenced, e.g. figures, equations, tables, cross-references to other text.
In this case the user could define a counter for each item and freely define the text such as "fig. 1" or "Figure 1" or any other form. This leaves the freedom to format the cross-reference any way required and keep track of a many separate graphics objects (pictures, drawings, eqautions, etc.) even if they all appear as pictures within Mellel.

Financial
Financial reports often contain references for dates and items like 4th quater etc. Again, counters could be defined for each item and a cross-reference cold be constructed by the user.

Books
Cross-references to pages, paragraphs and sections could use the build in counters that Mellel already has such as section tags, page numbers etc. Other cross-references such as "see page 95, chapter Mellel for Users" could be contructed by a marked text block at the target site in combination with the page counter and fixed user defined text. The references could reference pages, headers or any other places in the document.

So in summary this mechanism covers all possible forms of cross reference and is flexible to adapt to even highly unusual demands. The definition and generation of cross-reference text would be very similar to Autotiles so these components could be reused and the user would only have to learn one mechanism (for Autotitles and Cross-references).

[mc7121]

• URL-links. Not really cross-references, but I would like to see clickable URL and MailTo Links built in.

• PDF-Export. It would be really great, if Mellel gets an enchanced PDF export with working links so that you could click URLs, TOC entries, Notes and Cross References and jump to the referenced position (or open a website/mail client).

To the first of these requests, I must say I vehemently disagree. One of the features I hate about Word is that it creates clickable links when you type an email address or URL/URI. Very rarely (if ever!) do I want my word processor to make my typographically beautiful document to be marred by blue text with unsightly underlines. If this were to be implemented, it would need to be an option, with the default being off. (Or better, links, especially to an outside program like an email address or URL/URI, should need to be explicitly created.)

As far as the second part, it would be nice to create a new PDF export system that embeds the TOC and allows for navigation within the document by using the TOC.

I totally agree:
URLs should not automatically promote themselves and destroy the optical appearance.
PDFs that retain cross references, TOC etc are desparately required. In Germany I have the option to submit my PhD thesis as a PDF which saves me a lot of money for printing. If I do so, however, I want the PDF to be as good as its content

[yaxpac]

I know it has only been a few months since it was announced that cross referencing is pending. Is there any chance that there might be a really crude estimate of when this feature might be implemented?

It would really help on my thesis

R. Joe

[yaxpac]

Is there any chance that there might be a really crude estimate of when this feature might be implemented?

It would really help on my thesis

R. Joe

Just found the answer on another thread, before the end of this year:

http://forum.redlers.com/viewtopic.php? ... ht=figures

(Is there any chance of using a calendar that ends, say, this Friday? Seriously though, just keep up the great work. Mellel is awesome.

[ptram]

Inserting Cross References should be possible via a keyboard shortcut

This is done with Cmd-K in FramemMaker, and this combination is free in Mellel. maybe it is the right one to choose... (At the same time, index markers are added via the nearby Cmd-J).

Jumping between the reference and the referenced part should be possible

Again, in FrameMaker you jump to the target with Ctrl-Opt-Click. No way to return back (something I find highly desirable).
However, you idea of a symbol appearing with the mouse hover, looks better to me.

Paolo

[rpcameron]

Inserting Cross References should be possible via a keyboard shortcut

This is done with Cmd-K in FramemMaker, and this combination is free in Mellel. maybe it is the right one to choose... (At the same time, index markers are added via the nearby Cmd-J).

Jumping between the reference and the referenced part should be possible

Again, in FrameMaker you jump to the target with Ctrl-Opt-Click. No way to return back (something I find highly desirable).
However, you idea of a symbol appearing with the mouse hover, looks better to me.

Paolo

I know many users here adore and miss FrameMaker, but let's please remember that Mellel is not FrameMaker; Mellel was also neither created to be nor slated to become a FrameMaker replacement.

[nicka]

let's please remember that Mellel is not FrameMaker; Mellel was also neither created to be nor slated to become a FrameMaker replacement.

Why the antipathy to FrameMaker? I've never used FrameMaker, but I don't see why Mellel shouldn't borrow all of its good ideas.
Also, I wouldn't be so sure that Mellel isn't slated to be a FrameMaker replacement. There's no good application for producing long technical documents on OS X. It's obvious that the Redlers know that, and not a big jump to assume that they intend to pick up some or all of that market.

After all, Mellel's stated aims, to be good with multilingual and academic documents, will involve developing most FrameMaker type features, since academics need pretty much everything that writers of long technical documents do, including page layout features.

That doesn't rule out Mellel doing some things better than FrameMaker, such as cross-references, I hope.

[rpcameron]

let's please remember that Mellel is not FrameMaker; Mellel was also neither created to be nor slated to become a FrameMaker replacement.

Why the antipathy to FrameMaker? I've never used FrameMaker, but I don't see why Mellel shouldn't borrow all of its good ideas.
Also, I wouldn't be so sure that Mellel isn't slated to be a FrameMaker replacement. There's no good application for producing long technical documents on OS X. It's obvious that the Redlers know that, and not a big jump to assume that they intend to pick up some or all of that market.

After all, Mellel's stated aims, to be good with multilingual and academic documents, will involve developing most FrameMaker type features, since academics need pretty much everything that writers of long technical documents do, including page layout features.

That doesn't rule out Mellel doing some things better than FrameMaker, such as cross-references, I hope.

It's not antipathy towards FrameMaker. However, it is a statement meant to have others rethink what they are looking for or expecting in their word processor.

I've created a new topic to more fully illustrate my view on this matter:

Some comments regarding feature requests

[nicka]

I've created a new topic to more fully illustrate my view on this matter:

Fair enough. I've had a look and might post a response to some of the points you raise there.

About the specific proposed borrowings from FrameMaker -- I think they make sense not because FM does them that way but because they have to be done one way or another and the way suggested seems good.
Compare with Word, where it easy to accidentally jump from a cross-reference to its target because -- surprisingly -- that's what ordinary (left-)clicking on a cross-reference does, but it is impossible to get from a cross-reference to its target with the keyboard. Here FM's behaviour is clearly better than Word's in both respects, but as Paolo suggested, there are ways Mellel could be better still. I don't think anyone is suggesting slavish copying.

[ptram]

As a software developer myself, I couldn't imagine not looking at how others do the same thing I'm working on. If not for anything else, just to learn from other's mistakes.

I don't see anybody in this forum asking for Mellel to copy functions from other programs. Several people do ask for new functions, describing how they work in other applications. This seems to me a good way to avoid reinventing the hot water each time.

I don't think that harsh complaining for other people's ideas and proposals is very nice. However, I find moving any flame to a different thread is a clever move, so that we can keep this thread on focus.

Paolo

[nicka]

Just now I found myself doing this (in Word, sadly):

Examples include sentences with multiple centre-embedding, such as (1) b):

(1) a) The mouse that the cat caught got away.
b) The mouse that the cat that the dog chased caught got away.

In Word there doesn't seem to be any way to set up the introducing mention of (1) b) as a cross-reference to the second line in the example. I had to settle for making the number 1 (and the opening parenthesis) a reference to the number of the example.

It would be very useful if Mellel's cross-referencing system could do this. To be clear, what I would like is to be able to create a cross-reference that would automatically update the number if necessary _and_ the letter. That is, putting in a new line (1)a) would bump the letter up to (c) in the caption, and in the reference, so it would look like this:

Examples include sentences with multiple centre-embedding, such as (1) c):

(1) a) The mouse got away.
b) The mouse that the cat caught got away.
c) The mouse that the cat that the dog chased caught got away.

[eleuteruiz]

Hadn't Ori told us that the plan is to implement this within 2006? Look in the newsletters or in the forum, I can't remember at the moment.

Indeed!

We are in 2007. Any news on this?

[ptram]

To be true, according to the Jewish calendar, we are in year 5767. So, we must wait up to the next cycle

(Better slow, but a work well done. I can wait.)

Paolo

[macsailor]

(Better slow, but a work well done. I can wait.)

Agree on this one. When the next version is ready to be released, it's ready to be released. Until then, it's not ready.