[Discussion] Cross referencing

fitzgunnar · Post by **fitzgunnar** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:33 am

Well, many of us CANNOT wait. Of course there is no use in releasing a half-finished product, but why isn't it whole-finished now? They promised us cross-referencing before the end of 2006, and it is still not here.

I think we have to realise that although the product Mellel is great, the company Redlex is not. They are perhaps not worse than most other software companies, but not better either. For the two-three years that I have followed Mellel, the releases and planned features have NEVER been delivered on schedule.

Eleuteruiz, noone knows when we will see cross-referencing in Mellel. My guess is that during January Redlex will put out a newsletter explaining the delay, and a new prognosis will be given. It may be that cross-referencing (or some other much wanted feature) is postponed to a later release, e.g. 2.3 or 3.0. It may also be that 2.2 pops out in March with splendid cross-referencing.

Then again, what do I know...

/MagnusG!

mc7121 · Post by **mc7121** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:36 am

fitzgunnar wrote:Well, many of us CANNOT wait. Of course there is no use in releasing a half-finished product, but why isn't it whole-finished now? They promised us cross-referencing before the end of 2006, and it is still not here.

I think we have to realise that although the product Mellel is great, the company Redlex is not. They are perhaps not worse than most other software companies, but not better either. For the two-three years that I have followed Mellel, the releases and planned features have NEVER been delivered on schedule.

Eleuteruiz, noone knows when we will see cross-referencing in Mellel. My guess is that during January Redlex will put out a newsletter explaining the delay, and a new prognosis will be given. It may be that cross-referencing (or some other much wanted feature) is postponed to a later release, e.g. 2.3 or 3.0. It may also be that 2.2 pops out in March with splendid cross-referencing.

Then again, what do I know...

/MagnusG!

I have to agree to MagnusG. I'm not using Mellel just for fun. Instead I depend on delivering the documents I write. I have to be on schedule with the release and I require the product I work with to be on schedule, too. That's one of the points that tells a "nice" product from a "professional" one.
I can live with it, if cross referencing will be there by Macworld. Otherwise I simply have to switch because I can't maintain cross references manually.

frvs · Post by **frvs** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:38 am

Well, the Redlers have stated with emphasis that they will be in MacWorld with mighty things to present. I guess it´s safe to assume this will be the much-waited big update. So then, I would say the update will be in January. Just my guess, though…

Phil82 · Post by **Phil82** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:30 am

I too hope it doesn't take too long. I aim to submit my thesis sometime in March or April at the latest. I need Mellel with cross referencing as soon as possible.

ptram · Post by **ptram** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:11 pm

Magnus,

fitzgunnar wrote:Well, many of us CANNOT wait. Of course there is no use in releasing a half-finished product, but why isn't it whole-finished now? They promised us cross-referencing before the end of 2006, and it is still not here.

I don't see where you found a promise for something. I saw an informal commitment to release the new version before the end of 2006, made in this friendly chat, and that's all. Any software is sold as is, not as it is supposed to be. Obviously, if you have any statement written in a license agreement, I'm with you and will support you in a request for a refund.

If you, as me, cannot wait for some of the "promised" features, the only solution is to use a different wordprocessor. I use Mellel only for what it can do for me (and does much better than others), not for tasks where some needed features are not yet implemented. Microsoft Word is on sale from a "professional" company that, contrary to the Redlers, meet all their promises (well, maybe with just a three or four years delay...). Nisus Writer and Mariner Writer are also on sale. As for me, I use NeoOffice when I need cross-referencing, and I'm more or less happy with it.

I would like the features I need were already here. For example, I would like to be able to use Melle for screenwriting. However, I frankly cannot understand the need for being so rude with a company that is developing a software in the way we, the users, are requesting them. Nobody enforced us to use it, and the admission price was not all that high to allow us to pretend too much.

Regards,
Paolo

danzac · Post by **danzac** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:12 pm

I can understand people's want for the new release, I too am working on a thesis and need cross-referencing. That said, patience is a virtue and the redlers are extremely open to discussion on development. This is not always the case with program developers, so take it as a sign of affection and commitment to Mellel users that the redlers even discussed a release date. Many programmers won't even step into that arena. And some colored comments may well cause them to refrain from open discussion any more.

Things don't always go as planned, it is a fact of life.

Mart°n · Post by **Mart°n** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:00 pm

ptram wrote: I saw an informal commitment to release the new version before the end of 2006, made in this friendly chat, and that's all. Any software is sold as is, not as it is supposed to be.

True, there was nothing more than a comment in this chat but some people may have chosen to use Mellel for their work because of that comment. The normal procedure of a new version always included a 2 - 4 week beta test. I’m happy, if a new feature is promised and am more happy if a nice time frame is given too. However, if it’s obvious, that the feature couldn’t be delivered as promised (which seems to be the case here) it would be fair to the users, to announce the delay. If the beta test haven’t begun in late November or early December, it should have been clear to the Redlers, that the postman couldn’t deliver in late 2006. With a message at this time, some users would have the chance of switching to another app if they need cross references. The current situation is nothing but unclear. Maybe we’ll see it on January 8th at the Macworld Expo, maybe in February or in October 2009.

As said, I’m happy to hear about features and release dates in future, but would like to hear about delays too, and hopefully not after the promised date has already passed.

rpcameron · Post by **rpcameron** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:22 am

Mart°n wrote:
ptram wrote: I saw an informal commitment to release the new version before the end of 2006, made in this friendly chat, and that's all. Any software is sold as is, not as it is supposed to be.
True, there was nothing more than a comment in this chat but some people may have chosen to use Mellel for their work because of that comment. The normal procedure of a new version always included a 2 - 4 week beta test. I’m happy, if a new feature is promised and am more happy if a nice time frame is given too. However, if it’s obvious, that the feature couldn’t be delivered as promised (which seems to be the case here) it would be fair to the users, to announce the delay. If the beta test haven’t begun in late November or early December, it should have been clear to the Redlers, that the postman couldn’t deliver in late 2006. With a message at this time, some users would have the chance of switching to another app if they need cross references. The current situation is nothing but unclear. Maybe we’ll see it on January 8th at the Macworld Expo, maybe in February or in October 2009.

As said, I’m happy to hear about features and release dates in future, but would like to hear about delays too, and hopefully not after the promised date has already passed.

Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh, but one ought never base their work on the anticipated release of something. Mellel will eventually have cross-referencing. However, no one except the Redlers know when that will be. If you are dependent on this feature to complete your work, then your work (for the moment) should not be completed in Mellel. Simple as that.

simifilm · Post by **simifilm** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:28 pm

rpcameron wrote: Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh, but one ought never base their work on the anticipated release of something. Mellel will eventually have cross-referencing. However, no one except the Redlers know when that will be. If you are dependent on this feature to complete your work, then your work (for the moment) should not be completed in Mellel. Simple as that.

I have to second this. Don't rely on not-yet released software for critical work. If the Redlers had announced a clear date, the situation would have been a bit different, but with the vage promise we have, it's certainly not wise to rely on the update.

When I started my PhD thesis 3 years ago I was considering Mellel for a Moment (coming from Framemaker and looking for a WYSIWYG app). It was clear then that Mellel lacked some feature I needed and it was also that they would be included eventually. Well, fortunately, I didn't wait, meanwhile I've finished my thesis with LaTeX, and Mellel still lacks cross refs and support for multiple bibliographies.

Mart°n · Post by **Mart°n** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:25 am

rpcameron wrote: Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh, but one ought never base their work on the anticipated release of something.

I see it as one opinion. I personally don’t base my work on nonexistent releases so this doesn’t and won’t hurt me at all. Based on some posts I’ve read on this forum, I get the impression, that some others may have done, doing or plan to do so. However, the whole industry (maybe the whole life) runs on the feet of scheduled dates. Your mom tells you that she will come on friday, the timetable promises that the next bus will arrive soon, if you order a Mac, Apple tells you that it will be delivered within the next 3 days and maybe your girlfriend has said that she will marry you tomorrow. All those things are promises of things that will happen in future and somehow you will include them into your own plans. The Redlers, or Ori, to be more precise, has said, that… (we know it all) and maybe some people have integrated this promise into their own schedules which now may be deranged.
All I have asked for is a small note, if a promised deadline will be delayed. I would like that as I would like to get informed if my mom doesn’t arrive on friday, the bus will be late, my new Mac won’t be here within 3 days and my girlfriend decided not to marry me tomorrow. If I know those things, I could make a new plan how to wast my time.
That’s all.

Maybe I expect too much

rpcameron wrote: Mellel will eventually have cross-referencing. However, no one except the Redlers know when that will be.

I would not bet on the latter statement.

rpcameron wrote: If you are dependent on this feature to complete your work, then your work (for the moment) should not be completed in Mellel. Simple as that.

Even more simple “…your work (for the moment) could not be completed in Mellel”.

Thanks for listening

donb · Post by **donb** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:20 am

Mellel is now a very complicated piece of coding. The Redlers have often said that their principal concern is that Mellel be reliable, i.e. not crash. If you want new features to be added on in minimal time, then you will have to put up with endless crashing -- as was the case with Classic Nisus and is still the case with Nisus Express. For the Nisus team, implementing new features is more important than reliability. If I remember rightly, some time after Joe Kissel left the Nisus company, in the pre-OS X days, someone in the team, I think its originator, said that actually by that point it was unknown what many of the earlier lines of code actually did.

When your code runs into many thousands of lines, it requires a lot of work to ensure that added code does not conflict with previous lines. Often there are totally unexpected conflicts which have to be worked out. It is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect a developer of a major program to give a precise date for when some new feature will be ready.What at first looks like a simple thing may and often does turn out to be unexpectedly difficult and complicated. Cross referencing is a particularly hard nut to crack, especially when no two people quite agree as to what is or is not required for "proper" cross referencing.

I far prefer to wait a few extra months, if necessary, and be sure that my work will not be messed up or lost because of a program malfunction ("crash"), than put up with a a schedule, even an approximate one, that must be met no matter what the consequences.

Don Broadribb

nicka · Post by **nicka** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:57 pm

I agree with Don and Patrick, and Martin too (in the spirit of goodwill to all men, perhaps).

The undertaking given by Ori was informal and not to be taken as a guarantee, and no doubt it is simply taking longer than expected to implement cross-references while preserving stability and responsiveness. On the other hand the world works more on informal arrangements, understandings and goodwill than on contracts. So I urge Ori, if he is considering it at all, to give us an indication in general terms of how far the release is likely to be put back.

I am sure that, in the long term, documents needing crossreferences will be possible in Mellel. Obviously, in the short term such documents must be made elsewhere. But an indication of how the previously stated timetable has been revised would help users to plan for the medium term, from this month, or this academic term, to this year.

joewiz · Post by **joewiz** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:55 pm

A possible hint? ... http://forum.redlers.com/viewtopic.php?p=5466#5466

Ori Redler wrote:... very soon (more like next month)

mc7121 · Post by **mc7121** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:37 pm

joewiz wrote:A possible hint? ... http://forum.redlers.com/viewtopic.php?p=5466#5466

Ori Redler wrote:... very soon (more like next month)

Isn't there a chance that we could finally get a reliable hint on when we can expect cross referencing? Is it February, March, April, ...?

Ori Redler · Post by **Ori Redler** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:18 pm

mc7121 wrote:
joewiz wrote:A possible hint? ... http://forum.redlers.com/viewtopic.php?p=5466#5466

Ori Redler wrote:... very soon (more like next month)
Isn't there a chance that we could finally get a reliable hint on when we can expect cross referencing? Is it February, March, April, ...?

Hi, I'm sorry to say that I cannot give an exact date. Amongst other things, we've ran into some unexpected (not programming related) problems which delay us slightly here. What I can say is that Mellel 2.2 is now very close (days...) to beta.