cmd-I and B for italics and bold

Feature requests, and in-depth discussions of features and the way Mellel works

Moderators: Eyal Redler, redlers, Ori Redler

Allow use of cmd-I and B for italics/bold?

Yes, makes sense to me
16
47%
No, function keys are cool (and other mysterious reasons)
18
53%
 
Total votes: 34

Mart°n
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Post by Mart°n »

I think it doesn’t make sense to match those shortcuts. Numbe one reason: it doesn’t work.

• You couldn’t toggle style variations with CMD+B and so on. One example: You have some text and press cmd+b, you apply your 2nd variation and the text would be displayed in bold. Great. Now you press cmd+i. As this shortcut is assigned to your 3rd variation, the font will be displayed in italic, but the thing you’ve expected as a former word user was bold-italic. Bullsh*t.

A second example. You write some words, press cmd+i to apply the 3nd style which lets your text appear in italic. After some lines you press cmd+b to apply your 2nd style because you like to see one line in boldface. A minute later, you select that line and press cmd+b again because you like to toggle the bold state. Your text is now shown in regular because the bold state is toggled to the regular face which is wrong as it should be italic as the rest of the paragraph.

So neither the option to toggle (how should Mellel know to which style you like to toggle) nor the addition of character variations (cmd+b and cmd+u doesn’t create bold-underline and select your variation no. 7 but creates the last selected which is underlined only) does work.
Even more. Everyone could set up the character variations as she/he likes, so one could create a character style called rainbow which uses the same font/size but different colors on F1-F8. Now cmd+b doesn’t output bold but green text.

The style thing IS different from other word processors and if you get used to, you’ll never like to switch back. If you teach others to use and how to use Mellel it may be a better option to collect some more arguments and some better examples of the advantages of using styles. It doesn’t need much time to get used to this system if you switch completely. A semi switch with non working and wrong behaving shortcuts really doesn’t help you (which is my opinion that may be wrong)
transalpin
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Post by transalpin »

I don’t use just bold or italic style variations. My variations are something like:
1. Base (roman serif font, 12pt)
2. Emphasis (bold, sans-serif, 11.42pt)
3. Reference (italic, serif, 12pt)
5. Author (small caps, serif, 12pt)
6. ...

This is, in my opinion, how style variations should be used: Don’t define them by style but by their meaning!
If I later decide not to have author names in small caps or to make the emphasized text italic&serif instead of bold&sans-serif, I wouldn’t have to rename them.

The cmd+B and cmd+I shortcuts, on the other hand, can be useful for playing around with the layout (when you want to see whether or not bold headings look nicer, for example). Then simply safe your changes to the character style to make them globally available.

I just wish I had more style variations.
FA1
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Post by FA1 »

Mart°n wrote:I think it doesn’t make sense to match those shortcuts. Numbe one reason: it doesn’t work.
I see your point about difficulties with toggling, but it doesn't seem inconceivable to me that Mellel might be able to figure out which style variation you're trying to switch to.

More simply, as Ori read the request, you could just allow mapping of keyboard shortcuts to the F-keys. Yes, you'd be unable to toggle if you left it like that, but it seems better than having it make ad hoc changes that you should probably NEVER use, and I'd guess that virtually everyone who uses styles does not use them. Transalpin above gave the only plausible reason I've seen, which is to play around with how it might look -- that seems a very rare occurrence and not worth confusing new users about what those shortcuts will accomplish.

Personally, the main thing I use style variations for is just to make things italic (although I'm probably not using its full potential); as long as I continue typing and then go back to make italics, hitting cmd-I and having it map to F3 would work fine unless I need to go back and change it.

I'll try to make this the last thing I'll say about it, I see the "no's" are winning, but maybe just allowing customizable shortcuts will make everyone happy (except new users if you don't make it default!)
rpcameron
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Post by rpcameron »

FA1 wrote:
Mart°n wrote:I think it doesn’t make sense to match those shortcuts. Numbe one reason: it doesn’t work.
I see your point about difficulties with toggling, but it doesn't seem inconceivable to me that Mellel might be able to figure out which style variation you're trying to switch to.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it is rather inconceivable that Mellel figure out what you would like to toggle, because it depends on the context. I usually assign variation 2 to italics, but variation 3 differs dramatically depending upon what I'm writing: if I'm writing a general letter then the style is use has var. 3 as bold; however, if I'm writing an academic paper then I prefer to use var. 3 for small caps, and var. 4 for bold. By reassigning global shortcuts, the whole thing just gets muddled up.

And yes, I know there is the large amount of users who will say "Make it an option, and if they don't want it, they don't have to use it!". However, this is a different situation. This request is to have Word-like style behaviors shoe-horned into a situation where the style paradigm is radically different than Word's. Unfortunately, I still feel that when it comes to Mellel's styles, it is black and white—use Mellel's styles with variations, or use ad hoc. styles, but do not mix them because it was not intended that way.
— Robert Cameron
nvalvo
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Post by nvalvo »

Now, granted, I am young enough that I have been using Macintoshes since 1988, when I was six, and keyboard shortcuts are consequently second nature, but I like the f-key situation. The idea of having a different key combination for every type attribute rather than style seems really counter-intuitive to me. So, in word to go from straight roman normal-weight text to bold italic underlined text, I am supposed to type in sequence Command-B, Command-I, Command-U? Why not define a style once, and then implement it each time with a single keystroke? Which of these encourages the user to produce better documents? The single attribute keystroke encourages undesigned documents because it deëmphasizes premeditation and decision-making. Let me put it this way: this is 2006, well into the era of semantically-structured documents. Command-B Bold is so eighties.

I also use a powerbook and I would recommend to other laptop Mellelers that they invert the fn key using the keyboard system preference, by checking "use the f1-f12 keys to control software features". So F3 would then be italic, and fn-F3 would be mute. Since I not only use Mellel's style variants, I also use Exposé pretty much constantly, this is crucial for me.

Another thing to do is use Quicksilver (perhaps the most innovative app on the OS, pace Redlers) triggers to define new shortcuts for volume, etc., if you really can't stand the fn modifier. [/i]
zoul
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Post by zoul »

Anybody who thinks that this feature request could be satisfied by customizable keyboard shortcuts (I do) can vote for the keyboard shortcuts.
jolinwarren
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Post by jolinwarren »

I think that this is an important issue, and one that is definitely confusing for new (non-techy) users. Additionally, it is really awkward on a PowerBook to have to constantly press fn-F1, fn-F2, etc. just to apply bold. I know that it's possible to turn off the need to press 'fn' in OS X, but then it's really inconvenient for me to mute or change the volume (which I do more than using bold or italic in just one application). Cmd-B and Cmd-I are really convenient, hence their use as shortcuts for decades.
Ori Redler wrote:If I understand this correctly, this is really a request for customisable keyboard shortcuts, where Cmd+B, for example, would be used in lieu of F2, Cmd+I instead of F3, etc. Right?
I think that this kind of solution wouldn't be very good, as it is too crude. As others on this topic have pointed out, if you simply re-map the style variations to different keys, Mellel's behaviour will be inconsistent and unpredictable when you want bold+italic, etc. The solution that I envisage is as follows:
  1. When setting up a character style, one can define the following through drop-down menus:
    • which style variation should be considered 'bold'
    • which style variation should be considered 'italic'
    • which style variation should be considered 'underline'
    • which style variation should be considered 'bold+italic'
    • which style variation should be considered 'bold+underline'
    • which style variation should be considered 'italic+underline'
    • which style variation should be considered 'bold+italic+underline'
    The default settings (and one of the options) for all of these would be 'ad hoc' instead of assigning a style variation. Note that there could be a mix of 'ad-hoc' and assigned variations (for instance, I might have associated variation B with 'bold', variation C with 'italic', but left 'bold+italic+underline' as ad-hoc). Therefore, if you don't adjust these settings when creating a character style, Mellel behaves as now. Either way, the Fn key assignments for variations always behave as now.
  2. When editing my document, if I press cmd-B, Mellel calculates what variation should be applied based on the existing text. If the existing text is in the standard variation, then Mellel applies the variation I've defined as 'bold'. If the existing text is in the variation I've defined as italics, then Mellel applies the variation I've defined as 'bold+italics'. Basically, Mellel will use the same logic to determine the variation as it currently does to determine the ad-hoc text style.
I think this is an ideal solution because:
  • those of us that don't like the function keys can stop using them;
  • without assigning the 'bold', 'italic', etc. variations, Mellel will behave as now and not interfere with people who like the current system;
  • even if one uses the system I've described, the function keys can still be used to switch to a specific, known, variation
  • everyone should be happy! (except the Mellel developers who have a bit more work ;-))
rpcameron
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Post by rpcameron »

jolinwarren wrote:The default settings (and one of the options) for all of these would be 'ad hoc' instead of assigning a style variation. Note that there could be a mix of 'ad-hoc' and assigned variations (for instance, I might have associated variation B with 'bold', variation C with 'italic', but left 'bold+italic+underline' as ad-hoc). Therefore, if you don't adjust these settings when creating a character style, Mellel behaves as now. Either way, the Fn key assignments for variations always behave as now.
While I feel that you have elegantly explained a way to circumvent the short-comings that Cmd+[I,B,U] encompasses, I don't feel that it is adequate. This mainly stems from the "mix of 'ad-hoc' and assigned variations" that you propose. Unfortunately, with Mellel it is either completely ad hoc or completely using the style system—mixing the two only creates confusion and unexpected behaviors. Also, those who create their styles would be unlikely to combine an italic face with an underline, or a heavy-weighted (bold) italic face; those variation slots are normally for small caps, sub/superscript, or different scripts (for mixing more than two scripts, such as a semitic, sinitic and latin). While well thought-out, I still hold that Cmd+[I,B,U] should be reserved for ad hoc styling only, and structured styling should be accessed through Mellel's style system; to mix the two would be non-intuitive.
jolinwarren wrote:When editing my document, if I press cmd-B, Mellel calculates what variation should be applied based on the existing text. If the existing text is in the standard variation, then Mellel applies the variation I've defined as 'bold'. If the existing text is in the variation I've defined as italics, then Mellel applies the variation I've defined as 'bold+italics'. Basically, Mellel will use the same logic to determine the variation as it currently does to determine the ad-hoc text style.
The other problem with this situation is that one would not only need to keep track of which variation is which in each particular character style, but also which variation is assigned bold, italic, bold+italic, &c. This added level of abstraction adds more confusion to the author, who needs to remember style they are using, what its variations are and which variation is assigned to which set of toggles.

Again, it was a good idea, but I think there is still more fine-tuning that is needed before ad hoc style modifications can be correctly applied to Mellel's style system.
— Robert Cameron
jolinwarren
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Post by jolinwarren »

rpcameron wrote:
jolinwarren wrote:The default settings (and one of the options) for all of these would be 'ad hoc' instead of assigning a style variation. Note that there could be a mix of 'ad-hoc' and assigned variations (for instance, I might have associated variation B with 'bold', variation C with 'italic', but left 'bold+italic+underline' as ad-hoc). Therefore, if you don't adjust these settings when creating a character style, Mellel behaves as now. Either way, the Fn key assignments for variations always behave as now.
While I feel that you have elegantly explained a way to circumvent the short-comings that Cmd+[I,B,U] encompasses, I don't feel that it is adequate. This mainly stems from the "mix of 'ad-hoc' and assigned variations" that you propose. Unfortunately, with Mellel it is either completely ad hoc or completely using the style system—mixing the two only creates confusion and unexpected behaviors.
I don't think the system I've described would encourage mixing ad-hoc and assigned variations. I was simply pointing out (as you also state) that most people won't have variations for every combination of bold, italics, and underline. So in my system, they wouldn't be forced to bind every combination of b/i/u to a variation. But this is because most people don't use every possible combination of b/i/u, not because they would be mixing the use of ad-hoc and Mellel's style system. The system I have described would be exactly the same as Mellel is now with one (important) difference -- it would be possible to use Cmd+[I,B,U] instead of function keys for those who want to. But it wouldn't encourage people to mix 'ad-hoc' styles any more than the current Mellel system.
rpcameron wrote:Also, those who create their styles would be unlikely to combine an italic face with an underline, or a heavy-weighted (bold) italic face; those variation slots are normally for small caps, sub/superscript, or different scripts (for mixing more than two scripts, such as a semitic, sinitic and latin).
This is why I propose that it is not necessary to bind all of the b/i/u combinations to a variation. Some of the combinations will have no equivalent variation in a given character style.
rpcameron wrote: While well thought-out, I still hold that Cmd+[I,B,U] should be reserved for ad hoc styling only, and structured styling should be accessed through Mellel's style system
I'm just proposing a way that Cmd+[I,B,U] can be bound to access Mellel's style system. The current situation is a real hassle to use, and for such common actions like italics and bold is very frustrating. For new users, it is also a struggle to get them to consistently use Mellel's style/variation system because it is difficult to remember and awkward to access. Users (especially non-techies) are very used to using the Cmd+[I,B,U] shortcuts. I'm proposing a way that these shortcuts can be tied to Mellel's style system in a robust and predictable way so that mixing styles and 'ad-hoc' changes is discouraged.

Lastly, because all of these settings would have to be explicitly set, for anyone who's happy with Mellel's current key-bindings for switching variations, there would be absolutely no change. Also, this system doesn't impose using specific variations for certain font attributes. In one character style I could use variation B for a heavy weight and bind it to 'bold'; in another character style I could use variation E for a heavy weight and bind it to 'bold'. Because they are both bound to 'bold', regardless of the character style I'm using pressing Cmd+B will always add or take away the heavy weight as appropriate. I think this is more intuitive as I don't need to remember which variation is the heavy weight in each different character style. I can simply set up my styles carefully and use Cmd+[B/I/U] as needed.

I do agree with you that there are further refinements that could be made to Mellel's handling of 'ad-hoc' styles. But I think a system that allows flexible binding of variations to desired attributes will make it much easier to not have to use 'ad-hoc' styles at all.
nicka
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Post by nicka »

The current situation is a real hassle to use, and for such common actions like italics and bold is very frustrating. For new users, it is also a struggle to get them to consistently use Mellel's style/variation system because it is difficult to remember and awkward to access. Users (especially non-techies) are very used to using the Cmd+[I,B,U] shortcuts. I'm proposing a way that these shortcuts can be tied to Mellel's style system in a robust and predictable way so that mixing styles and 'ad-hoc' changes is discouraged.
I agree completely, for what it's worth.

And again, for what it's worth, I think Jolin's solution for the problem is by far the best one proposed so far.

My only minor disagreement is that I think that the behaviour Jolin proposes with command-b etc bound to variations should be the default -- that way it would just work for new users. Or the default could be simply to disable the command-b and command-i shortcuts. The current compromise is a mess and confusing to new users, who will generally not realise that all their bold and italic formatting will disappear as soon as they change a style.
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