cmd-I and B for italics and bold

Feature requests, and in-depth discussions of features and the way Mellel works

Moderators: Eyal Redler, redlers, Ori Redler

Allow use of cmd-I and B for italics/bold?

Yes, makes sense to me
16
47%
No, function keys are cool (and other mysterious reasons)
18
53%
 
Total votes: 34

FA1
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cmd-I and B for italics and bold

Post by FA1 »

I don't think this has been mentioned already. I'm sure there's a reason for the function keys being used for italics and bold; I don't understand all of the subtleties of using styles, but I'm not sure why you'd ever want to make ad hoc changes instead of having them "stick" if you change your paragraph style for example (which is what happens in MS Word). From my novice point of view, it seems you should have the option of mapping the F-key functionality to cmd-I and cmd-B. It's been suggested you can just use iKeys, but why not make it an option (or a default for the sake of new users) in Mellel.

(And especially on a PowerBook, I hate using the function keys)
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Post by macsailor »

I'm not sure I really follow you. When I select a part of the text in Mellel and use cmd-I, the text will be italic and the same goes for cmd-B and bold. Have I missed something here?

I regulary do not use cmd-I and cmd-B, since I usually use the predefined f-keys on my PowerBook.

Edit: Now I can see what you mean. When using cmd-keys, the italic and bold does not stay italic and bold after changing character or paragraph. But using the pre-defined f-keys, the italic and bold stays italic and bold even after changing character or paragraph.
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rpcameron
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Post by rpcameron »

The reason for this is when you make changes using the function keys, you're actually changing the style of the selected text. When you use Cmd+[I,B], what you are doing is modifying the underlying style; when you apply a different style those ad hoc. styles are lost and replaced with the new style.

If you use style variations, then the variation stays; if you always keep variation 2 for italics and variation 3 for bold, then whatever style you change to text marked for those variations will always be so (until overridden by you).
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Post by Reiner »

I think this problem would be solved best if Mellel would provide an interface to customize *every* shortcut, so one could choose command-b for the variation which is bold, command-i for the italic variation and even command-bi for the variation which is bold and italic.

This is my most wanted gui-improvement I am waiting to be implemented for years.
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Post by zoul »

I agree, customizable shortcuts would be a best way to solve this. (Do we have a feature request with a poll on this one? I think not.)
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Post by rpcameron »

Reiner wrote:I think this problem would be solved best if Mellel would provide an interface to customize *every* shortcut, so one could choose command-b for the variation which is bold, command-i for the italic variation and even command-bi for the variation which is bold and italic.

This is my most wanted gui-improvement I am waiting to be implemented for years.
The only problem with assigning Cmd+[B,I] to style variations is that the Cmd+[B,I] shortcuts are toggles for bold or italics, while style variations switch from variation to another. If you used Cmd+B for a stream of text to make it variation 2 (which you has assigned as bold), this would be fine. But if you selected some text that was already bold-faced (and variation 2), and used the Cmd+B shortcut, what you would get is not the removal of bold-facing, but no change (because it would try to switch the selection to variation 2, which it already was).

This is the reason (as far as I can tell) that Cmd+[B,I] only work for ad hoc. style changes and do not function well when used in conjunction with Mellel's style system.
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Post by zoul »

You’re right, I did not think of this neither. But putting bold and italics together is a typographic faux pas (at least according to Elements of Typographic Style), so that it is not exactly bad to make it difficult to do from a certain point of view :)

Users can always create another style variation if they really insist. I am sure they would prefer this extra work to ad hoc formatting that disappears when you change styles. (I would.)
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Post by FA1 »

rpcameron wrote: The only problem with assigning Cmd+[B,I] to style variations is that the Cmd+[B,I] shortcuts are toggles for bold or italics, while style variations switch from variation to another. If you used Cmd+B for a stream of text to make it variation 2 (which you has assigned as bold), this would be fine. But if you selected some text that was already bold-faced (and variation 2), and used the Cmd+B shortcut, what you would get is not the removal of bold-facing, but no change (because it would try to switch the selection to variation 2, which it already was).

This is the reason (as far as I can tell) that Cmd+[B,I] only work for ad hoc. style changes and do not function well when used in conjunction with Mellel's style system.
But surely it is possible to make it so the shortcut will toggle the style variation between having italics and not? Even if you had to use the f-keys or menu to undo a change in style variation, as in your example above, it would still be better (I think) to have the initial change as a style variation vs. ad hoc.

I still can't think of any scenario where you'd want to have a purely ad hoc change (please tell me if you have one), so why not make it as easy as possible? Why have the risk of a new user (or anyone) losing their formatting because they're using ad hoc changes?
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Post by rpcameron »

FA1 wrote:I still can't think of any scenario where you'd want to have a purely ad hoc change (please tell me if you have one), so why not make it as easy as possible? Why have the risk of a new user (or anyone) losing their formatting because they're using ad hoc changes?
This was actually covered rather extensively in previous fora postings. The only sure way to work around the differences between keyboard shortcuts for style changes and Cmd+[B,I] for ad hoc. changes is to exclusively use one or the other.

If you use only styles, then you don't worry about encountering any issues with loss of ad hoc. changes made. Likewise, if you do not use Mellel's style system and only use ad hoc. styling, then nothing will be lost because there are no style changes to override any change you may have made.

(Perhaps it's only my opinion, but I prefer this separation. I value Mellel's adherence to style and structure, and it's separation of content from style.)
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Post by FA1 »

rpcameron wrote: This was actually covered rather extensively in previous fora postings. The only sure way to work around the differences between keyboard shortcuts for style changes and Cmd+[B,I] for ad hoc. changes is to exclusively use one or the other.

If you use only styles, then you don't worry about encountering any issues with loss of ad hoc. changes made. Likewise, if you do not use Mellel's style system and only use ad hoc. styling, then nothing will be lost because there are no style changes to override any change you may have made.
I'm not trying to be annoying here, but I understand how Mellel deals with ad hoc changes, I just don't see why you'd ever want to use it, and therefore why it shouldn't just always be made a style variation (does anyone here use styles along with ad hoc changes?) If someone is not using styles at all, then making it a style variation does no harm, and if that person does decide to make a style change, then you wouldn't lose anything.

I'll have to assume that the Redlers have a good reason for the current way of doing it, so I'm just putting it out there as a suggestion to reconsider if it makes sense to do so.
(Perhaps it's only my opinion, but I prefer this separation. I value Mellel's adherence to style and structure, and it's separation of content from style.)
I don't see how that would be in contention here, I'm all in favor of Mellel's philosophy.
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Post by nicka »

RP Cameron wrote: This was actually covered rather extensively in previous fora postings. The only sure way to work around the differences between keyboard shortcuts for style changes and Cmd+[B,I] for ad hoc. changes is to exclusively use one or the other.

If you use only styles, then you don't worry about encountering any issues with loss of ad hoc. changes made. Likewise, if you do not use Mellel's style system and only use ad hoc. styling, then nothing will be lost because there are no style changes to override any change you may have made.

FA1 replied: I'm not trying to be annoying here, but I understand how Mellel deals with ad hoc changes, I just don't see why you'd ever want to use it, and therefore why it shouldn't just always be made a style variation (does anyone here use styles along with ad hoc changes?) If someone is not using styles at all, then making it a style variation does no harm, and if that person does decide to make a style change, then you wouldn't lose anything.
I agree. I don't see how having the option to use command-b and Command-i to invoke style variations rather than ad hoc formatting would interfere with Mellel's way of doing things. Like FA1, I don't see why anyone would want to use ad hoc formatting in Mellel, given that it will disappear when you change character style. But the question being considered here is whether we should have the choice to use familiar shortcuts for bold and italics for the way that we actually make bold andd italics in Mellel. (And others could stick with command-b and command-i for ad hoc formatting.) People who are against this have not explained -- as far as I can see -- how that option is a bad thing.
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Post by rpcameron »

nicka wrote:I agree. I don't see how having the option to use command-b and Command-i to invoke style variations rather than ad hoc formatting would interfere with Mellel's way of doing things. Like FA1, I don't see why anyone would want to use ad hoc formatting in Mellel, given that it will disappear when you change character style. But the question being considered here is whether we should have the choice to use familiar shortcuts for bold and italics for the way that we actually make bold andd italics in Mellel. (And others could stick with command-b and command-i for ad hoc formatting.) People who are against this have not explained -- as far as I can see -- how that option is a bad thing.
In its simplest form, the Cmd+[B,I] are for toggling those attributes, and not for assigning styles. As I previously stated the expected behavior for using those shortcuts is that they toggle either the boldfaced or italic quality of the selection. Because the shortcut keys for assigning styles (or style variations) are not toggles, but rather triggers, assigning the Cmd+[B,I] to styles (or variations) would be confusing.
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Post by nicka »

Because the shortcut keys for assigning styles (or style variations) are not toggles, but rather triggers, assigning the Cmd+[B,I] to styles (or variations) would be confusing.
You are right.

I think, though, that I would rather explain this to a Mellel beginner than the current situation. At present we have to say something like this:

Mellel-proselytiser: don't use command-b and command-i for bold and italics. Use style variations instead - you press Fn plus a function key to get them.
Beginner: Oh, don't command-b and command-i work in Mellel?
Mellel-proselytiser: Yes, they do, but you shouldn't use them. Let me explain why it's better this way...
Beginner: Um, you know, don't bother. I can get things done in Word.

And to say it again: the request is for the option to assign command-b and command-i to style variations. Assuming this would be implemented either as a preference setting, or the ability to freely choose a shortcut for each style variation, anyone who found it confusing could simply ignore it, keeping the current behaviour.

I really think that the current behaviour is so confusing -- and dangerous, in that it is easy to lose information beyond recovery without noticing until much later -- that I would even be in favour of a preference to simply disable the command-b and command-i shortcuts if they can't be assigned to style variations.
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Post by Ori Redler »

If I understand this correctly, this is really a request for customisable keyboard shortcuts, where Cmd+B, for example, would be used in lieu of F2, Cmd+I instead of F3, etc. Right?
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Post by FA1 »

Ori Redler wrote:If I understand this correctly, this is really a request for customisable keyboard shortcuts, where Cmd+B, for example, would be used in lieu of F2, Cmd+I instead of F3, etc. Right?
Yes. And if it's possible, it'd be ideal to have it toggle those attributes on and off (by moving between style variations). Otherwise I suppose you'd have to undo it by using f-keys or from the menu, which might be confusing but still an improvement over current behavior I think.
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