Feature request: Page style break after this page

Feature requests, and in-depth discussions of features and the way Mellel works

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rpcameron
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Re: Feature request: Page style break after this page

Post by rpcameron » Sun May 01, 2011 7:45 am

aaronpr wrote:… a feature I would like (which I will also submit separately, is a Page Style Break without a Page Break, and rather have the option to switch the Page Style on this or the next page. That would then provide for either having the new header appear on the current page or the next by choosing one of the two options, and every preference could be accommodated. There would just have to be 2 Page Style Break options, either Page Style Break This Page or Page Style Break Next Page.
I'm not quite sure I follow this idea. I guess the underlying question is “How can you have a Page Style Break without a Page Break?”. Truly, How can you shift a page style without taking into consideration the page style from the previous section? True, Mellel's system of breaks and page styles leaves much to be desired, but this is one aspect that I can't quite grasp.

If someone were to give me a valid example of how a page style break might occur without a page break, and give descriptions and examples, I may be behind this, but until then, this really makes no sense.
— Robert Cameron

jannuss
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Re: Feature request: Page style break after this page

Post by jannuss » Sun May 01, 2011 12:55 pm

If I've understood the discussion correctly, the questioner isn't actually looking for a "Page Style Break" at all.

What he needs is for the header and footer of the first page of text to look different from all the rest of the pages of text.

The easiest way to do this today with Mellel is to define a Page Style Break, but he doesn't want a physical page break.

I think the solution would be similar to odd/even header/foot . . . something like first/continuing header/footer.

Janet

rpcameron
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Re: Feature request: Page style break after this page

Post by rpcameron » Sun May 01, 2011 6:14 pm

jannuss wrote:If I've understood the discussion correctly, the questioner isn't actually looking for a "Page Style Break" at all.

What he needs is for the header and footer of the first page of text to look different from all the rest of the pages of text.
Ah, if that's the case, it seems like a resurrection of this old post: Feat Request: Page (Style) Break option in Paragraph Style
— Robert Cameron

aaronpr
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Re: Feature request: Page style break after this page

Post by aaronpr » Mon May 02, 2011 3:59 pm

rpcameron wrote: I'm not quite sure I follow this idea. I guess the underlying question is “How can you have a Page Style Break without a Page Break?”. Truly, How can you shift a page style without taking into consideration the page style from the previous section? True, Mellel's system of breaks and page styles leaves much to be desired, but this is one aspect that I can't quite grasp.

If someone were to give me a valid example of how a page style break might occur without a page break, and give descriptions and examples, I may be behind this, but until then, this really makes no sense.
I will clarify. If the discussion here is about having a specifically different header on the first page of the new Page Style, then this is not exactly what I am requesting. Rather, I would like the ability to start a chapter with a new Page Style in the middle of the page, with the option of having the new header appear either on the page on which the new chapter begins or on the following page.

For example, if page 12 was the final complete page of Chapter One and Chapter Two began in the middle of page 13, Chapter Two could begin in the middle of the page (without a Page Break) and there would be the option of either having the header on page 12 read "Chapter One" (per the Page Style of Chapter One) or read "Chapter Two" (per the Page Style of Chapter Two). This would provide for total independence of the Page Style Break and Page Break functions, which are currently unnecessarily (and inconveniently) combined in the Page Style Break function.

rpcameron
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Re: Feature request: Page style break after this page

Post by rpcameron » Mon May 02, 2011 8:14 pm

aaronpr wrote:For example, if page 12 was the final complete page of Chapter One and Chapter Two began in the middle of page 13, Chapter Two could begin in the middle of the page (without a Page Break) and there would be the option of either having the header on page 12 read "Chapter One" (per the Page Style of Chapter One) or read "Chapter Two" (per the Page Style of Chapter Two). This would provide for total independence of the Page Style Break and Page Break functions, which are currently unnecessarily (and inconveniently) combined in the Page Style Break function.
I was under the impression that this was how mentions were currently handled. In your header you insert a mention for the Auto-Title you have assigned to your chapter level, and it will dynamically change to reflect the information. Therefore, both chapters one and two would have the same page style, and that page style would have a header including the mention for the chapter's Auto-Title, and if chapter two starts in the middle of page 13, then the mention would change to reflect this.

If this is not currently the case, then there is a problem with Mellel's mentions and Auto-Titles, not with page styles.
— Robert Cameron

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Re: Feature request: Page style break after this page

Post by redlers » Mon May 02, 2011 11:55 pm

kjmatthews wrote:I think this is a fairly self-explanatory feature request. There are numerous situations where I would like to modify page style wherever the "natural" page break occurs in the text flow. This is particularly useful at the beginning of chapters, where page enumeration style and header/footer content tends to be different than on internal chapter pages. The current implementation of the page style break cannot accommodate this because it does not anchor itself to the end of a page, but rather forces a page break at the place where it is defined. My sense is that the page style break would be more useful if the user had to be explicit about wanting the actual page break as well. It would mean an extra keystroke for users who want the page break, but a lot more flexibility for those who don't.

(This would also solve all of my problems with dissertation pagination, which is not negligible.)

I'm curious how much traction this might have among users who frequent the forums.

Well, the good news is that we intend to do just that with Mellel 2.9... Now, what was the bad news?

BTW, it is implemented as a page attribute.

aaronpr
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Re: Feature request: Page style break after this page

Post by aaronpr » Tue May 03, 2011 5:29 am

rpcameron wrote:I was under the impression that this was how mentions were currently handled. In your header you insert a mention for the Auto-Title you have assigned to your chapter level, and it will dynamically change to reflect the information. Therefore, both chapters one and two would have the same page style, and that page style would have a header including the mention for the chapter's Auto-Title, and if chapter two starts in the middle of page 13, then the mention would change to reflect this.
I understand that the Chapter Level and Auto-Title functions are dynamically change the header, but I would like to have the ability to perform this function manually using only the Page Style Break function (without using Chapter Levels and Auto-Titles) and formatting my chapter titles and headers manually, as the Auto-Title function is limiting in chapter title formatting. By simply removing the Page Break for the Page Style Break, as I have laid out above, the control of the user for chapter formatting would be greatly improved.

rpcameron
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Re: Feature request: Page style break after this page

Post by rpcameron » Tue May 03, 2011 8:41 am

aaronpr wrote:I understand that the Chapter Level and Auto-Title functions are dynamically change the header, but I would like to have the ability to perform this function manually using only the Page Style Break function (without using Chapter Levels and Auto-Titles) and formatting my chapter titles and headers manually, as the Auto-Title function is limiting in chapter title formatting. By simply removing the Page Break for the Page Style Break, as I have laid out above, the control of the user for chapter formatting would be greatly improved.
I think I understand your reasoning, but I'm just curious as to why more complex manual control would be preferable to wanting greater flexibility with the Auto-Title/mention scheme as it stands. Also in the same vein, what do you find limiting in Auto-Titles' formatting. (I'm not saying I disagree, because I too find Auto-Titles limiting, but I am curious nevertheless.)
— Robert Cameron

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Re: Feature request: Page style break after this page

Post by ozean » Tue May 03, 2011 8:59 am

redlers wrote:Well, the good news is that we intend to do just that with Mellel 2.9...
Yay! This is exactly the kind of feature I would have loved to be in 2.9 :D

aaronpr
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Re: Feature request: Page style break after this page

Post by aaronpr » Tue May 03, 2011 3:45 pm

rpcameron wrote: I think I understand your reasoning, but I'm just curious as to why more complex manual control would be preferable to wanting greater flexibility with the Auto-Title/mention scheme as it stands. Also in the same vein, what do you find limiting in Auto-Titles' formatting. (I'm not saying I disagree, because I too find Auto-Titles limiting, but I am curious nevertheless.)
My main need in chapter and header formatting is for chapters to begin mid-page with non-numbered titles (which is possible with Auto-Title) and to have headers change along with the chapters though not necessarily reflecting the chapter title, as I sometimes need a header which represents a larger overarching title not noted at any point in the Auto-Title scheme. This would be achieved with manual control.

I am also generally more leaning towards manual control than automatic schemes as I can always spend the manual time necessary to get something to work without having the sometimes quirky problems with automatic schemes.

rpcameron
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Re: Feature request: Page style break after this page

Post by rpcameron » Tue May 03, 2011 6:14 pm

aaronpr wrote:
rpcameron wrote: I think I understand your reasoning, but I'm just curious as to why more complex manual control would be preferable to wanting greater flexibility with the Auto-Title/mention scheme as it stands. Also in the same vein, what do you find limiting in Auto-Titles' formatting. (I'm not saying I disagree, because I too find Auto-Titles limiting, but I am curious nevertheless.)
My main need in chapter and header formatting is for chapters to begin mid-page with non-numbered titles (which is possible with Auto-Title) and to have headers change along with the chapters though not necessarily reflecting the chapter title, as I sometimes need a header which represents a larger overarching title not noted at any point in the Auto-Title scheme. This would be achieved with manual control.

I am also generally more leaning towards manual control than automatic schemes as I can always spend the manual time necessary to get something to work without having the sometimes quirky problems with automatic schemes.
Ah, I understand. Then in keeping with both options, how about merging the two and allow an Auto-Title to have the option to override the existing page style. When an Auto-Title is inserted, just as one would would create the cross-reference target name, why not allow for a an option (perhaps hidden beneath a disclosure triangle) to allow a specific page style to be chosen as an override, and provide an option to manually adjust/modify the existing page style in use.

This would satisfy both sides, I feel. However, in keeping with a similar (and much requested) feature, expand page styles to allow them to include different first and last pages (including the option to suppress them), including even/odd and both features. (I find myself compromising my layouts because Mellel does not support my design.)

Ori, is anyone listening to these fleshed out ideas?
— Robert Cameron

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Re: Feature request: Page style break after this page

Post by kjmatthews » Sun May 15, 2011 10:31 pm

redlers wrote: Well, the good news is that we intend to do just that with Mellel 2.9... Now, what was the bad news?

BTW, it is implemented as a page attribute.
DELIGHTFUL.

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