Problems with right alignment in ToC

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writerguy
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Problems with right alignment in ToC

Post by writerguy »

Hi guys, I need your wise advice about ToC’s paragraph formatting. I’ve configured one paragraph style for each autotitle level, but the problem arises with some titles containing two lines:
http://imageshack.us/f/849/margin.png/
Image

As you can see, the right aligned page number presents some odd behavior, aligning properly in some cases and poorly in others. I’m getting nuts and already spent several days reading the help section, the tutorial and checking everything with no results. :(

What’s wrong with my settings? How can I solve the right aligned page number inconsistency?

-Ed.
rpcameron
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Re: Problems with right alignment in ToC

Post by rpcameron »

Perhaps increasing the reverse tab (meaning, move the right-aligned tab position a little to the left). It seems that the problem is because Mellel is not properly giving the page number enough horizontal space in the layout—thinking it is perhaps narrower than it is—so it places the leading dots and tries to align with the tab, but it cannot because it is forced onto the next line.

This is a long-standing bug that I have noticed, and is tied (I believe) to the bug that restrains you from placing a reverse tab exactly on the margin. Hopefully this will be fixed in the upcoming version, but I have no idea if it indeed will.
— Robert Cameron
Eyal Redler
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Re: Problems with right alignment in ToC

Post by Eyal Redler »

Try decreasing the right margin. There is not enough room for the number to fit on the line without overflowing the margin.
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writerguy
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Re: Problems with right alignment in ToC

Post by writerguy »

Eyal Redler wrote:Try decreasing the right margin. There is not enough room for the number to fit on the line without overflowing the margin.
Ok guys, thanks for your answers! I’ve followed your advice decreasing the right margin, giving the page number more room to fit on the line (and also I’ve moved the right-aligned tab position a little to the left). This setting solved the page number ’17’ properly, but just translated the problem to the page number ’63’:
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9292/margin2.png
Image

It seems that Mellel have problems placing text right aligned when the end of line is close to a reverse tab.
How can workaround this odd behavior with ALL my page numbers (and automatically) in my ToC?
rpcameron
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Re: Problems with right alignment in ToC

Post by rpcameron »

writerguy wrote:It seems that Mellel have problems placing text right aligned when the end of line is close to a reverse tab.
How can workaround this odd behavior with ALL my page numbers (and automatically) in my ToC?
You can try maybe adding some sort of whitespace characters to the end of the autotitles that are giving you problems, forcing them to be a little longer, and pushing the page number properly onto the next line. Otherwise, I'm not sure there is anything that can really be done.

You seem to have found one of Mellel's quirks/bugs with its layout along the right margin. Hopefully this will be fixed in the future, but your guess is as good as mine.
— Robert Cameron
DRB
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Re: Problems with right alignment in ToC

Post by DRB »

There is a way to do this, actually.

1. Move a reverse tab on the ruler as close as possible to the right hand margin without it disappearing.
2. Select the tab with your cursor.
3. In the Margins & Tab palette type in a position for the tab approximately 10 pts greater than is shown.
4. The tab position on the palette will show a lower number than you typed. For instance you might have typed in 560 but the palette will say 559.
6. Type in one point less than it shows and add .99
7. For example, if it showed 559, type in 558.99

You will find the tab is now precisely on the right margin.

You might do well to save a blank document with that setting as your default template.

Don Broadribb
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Re: Problems with right alignment in ToC

Post by nicka »

No doubt the way that the page number 63 is positioned on the left is a bug, and it should be fixed. But in your case, the correct behaviour -- that would get it put at the right hand side of the line below with a whole line of trailing dots -- would be poor typography. You might consider shortening the title, so that both title and number can fit on the same line.

(Actually this kind of set up with titles hard left and page numbers hard right is suboptimal for scanning, and the common device of trailing dots in between does not really help. But that is a bigger discussion.)
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Re: Problems with right alignment in ToC

Post by Eyal Redler »

What I see here is that the reverse tab is positioned beyond the right margin and the number is positioned over it which is slightly strange (since objects after the margin should be ignored) but the main thing here is that the title + number are wider then the allowed line width (which is determined by the column width and the margins) and the line is therefore broken before the number which is moved to the next line, this is not really a bug.

Looking at the screenshot I see that there is still a right margin, but the insertion point is not visible so it is not clear to which paragraph these settings apply.
If moving the right margin all the way to the right doesn't help, you can try moving the strong tab on the left slightly more to the left (reducing the distance between the chapter/section number and the title) or make the chapter title shorter.

To Donald: I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the elaborate procedure you've outline, if you drag a tab to the edge, it will just get stuck to it and not disappear... Does it work differently on your machine?
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DRB
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Re: Problems with right alignment in ToC

Post by DRB »

To Donald: I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the elaborate procedure you've outline, if you drag a tab to the edge, it will just get stuck to it and not disappear... Does it work differently on your machine?
In the current build 23 of Mellel 2.9 the reverse tab does stick if not moved too fast, most of the time -- but not always. In previous versions of Mellel it never stuck at the right margin, but inevitably went off the edge.t

Don Broadribb
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Re: Problems with right alignment in ToC

Post by Eyal Redler »

Donald: If you keep the mouse at the approximate height of the ruler line, the tab will stick. Also true for 2.8.2.
Is that not your case? If so, what pointing device are you using?
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Re: Problems with right alignment in ToC

Post by nicka »

What I see here is that the reverse tab is positioned beyond the right margin and the number is positioned over it which is slightly strange (since objects after the margin should be ignored) but the main thing here is that the title + number are wider then the allowed line width (which is determined by the column width and the margins) and the line is therefore broken before the number which is moved to the next line, this is not really a bug.
But shouldn't the number end up at the right end of the line below? That it doesn't is what I thought was a bug. But perhaps I have misunderstood how the right tab is supposed to work. (As I implied, I don't use this kind of set-up myself, because I think it makes the table of contents difficult for readers to scan).
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Re: Problems with right alignment in ToC

Post by Eyal Redler »

nicka wrote: But shouldn't the number end up at the right end of the line below?
Not really. Mellel tries to put the 63 in the line, it doesn't fit so it moves it to the next line. This means that the next line starts with the 63, and the 63 is placed at the beginning of the next line.
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Re: Problems with right alignment in ToC

Post by DylanMuir »

Eyal Redler wrote:Not really. Mellel tries to put the 63 in the line, it doesn't fit so it moves it to the next line. This means that the next line starts with the 63, and the 63 is placed at the beginning of the next line.
Ok, but do you think that's how it should work? It's a little unintuitive, when you want your TOC to have right-aligned page numbers.

DRM
writerguy
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Re: Problems with right alignment in ToC

Post by writerguy »

@DRB: Is your guide just to put the right-aligned tab to the right? Because if that is the case, I’ve figured out a way to put it ‘almost’ at the right margin, but the problem with the page numbers is already there. :(

@nicka: I also think that titles with a single line looks way better than doubles, but in this case, I have to follow some formatting guidelines and I don’t have much room to modify formatting issues. Specifically, I’m trying to emulate an example template generated with LaTeX, that IMHO brings the best rendering and formatting quality out there. And in the case of this document, the ToC’s typography dictates that titles must be left aligned with page numbers at the most right, filling the gap with dots (as in the tried example).
I’d like to shorten the double-lined titles, but that’s a little bit difficult in many cases (i.e.: when ToC’s at level 3 and above doesn’t leave enough room to fit titles). In the other hand, there are a few of double-lined titles, but they are very problematic.
What kind of scanning do you mean? What kind of ToCs do you use?
Eyal Redler wrote: Not really. Mellel tries to put the 63 in the line, it doesn't fit so it moves it to the next line. This means that the next line starts with the 63, and the 63 is placed at the beginning of the next line.
@Eyal: The settings (ruler, tabs, etc.) are for all the lines showed on screenshot (same style), to simplify things. It seems that I’m not the only one that didn’t get the reverse tab mechanics, because at the line with the 63, you have: left and right paragraph justification and a reverse tab, so we expect that the eol (with the 63) gets right alignment. In Microsoft Word just works as expected: placing the 63 at the most right with a reverse tab.
This is the original ToCs format I have to follow, note the right alignment when there is a double line title:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/580/goalq.png/
Image

So, how I can achieve this?

Also, it turns out that this is the second annoying ‘bug’ that I’ve discovered. The last one (8 months ago) was regarding a hang out with an incrusted PDF image configured as follow: PDF image opened, rotated 90 degrees and saved in Preview.app, then inserted in Mellel.app and when you select Inline text placement, Boom, hangout!.
This was well documented, reported and reproduced by the developer (Ori) with no solution. At this moment, in Mellel 2.8.2 (Build 3) this bug still there, hanging the app. At least, this alignment bug/weird behavior doesn’t hang Mellel out. So R. Patrick Cameron: your guess is also as good as mine.
As a paid user I can no longer recommend this processor as I did before, I’m sorry! :(

Again, thank you very much guys! :)

- Ed
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Re: Problems with right alignment in ToC

Post by Eyal Redler »

The settings (ruler, tabs, etc.) are for all the lines showed on screenshot (same style), to simplify things
So, according to the image, the margin is not all the way to the right and this means that there is not enough room for the number to fit. Move the margin to the edge and if the number can fit without overlapping the title, it will remain on the right side, otherwise, Mellel will put it in the next line.
In Microsoft Word just works as expected: placing the 63
Not exactly, as you can see in the image you will have a very similar problem if you tried the same (including the tab at the beginning of the title). It makes sense since the number cannot actually fit on the line without overlapping and MS Word moves it to the next line. (There is a slight difference in the way MS Word handles this since it doesn't consume the tab at the line end like Mellel)
Image
Same thing in Mellel:
Image
This is the original ToCs format I have to follow, note the right alignment when there is a double line title
So, how I can achieve this?
If the title is long enough to actually extend to the next line, like it does in the examples, then then reverse tab will catch.
Image
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