Feature Request: True multi-lingual spell check.

[transalpin]

my original idea had been to make switching languages as little of an effort as possible.

My suggestion is to have all language-related stuff on Character Style level (including automatic dictionary selection and hyphenation).
Switching between English and Russian would merely be a matter of pressing Fn (in order to change the Style Variation).

[nicka]

But (replying to transalpin's last but one post) I agree with you about this! (See my edit above, responding to your post, which you posted while I was composing mine.)

I think language styles are a good idea, so that you can change spelling and hyphenation dictionaries (and if desired, or necessary) keyboard layout all at once, by clicking on one icon, or using one keyboard shortcut. That has nothing to do with what icon we choose to associate with the style. I agree that that practice is nationalist (ie silly) at best and just braindead in the case of certain languages like English, Mandarin, Arabic, Swahili, koine Greek...

Edit: added clarification about what I was agreeing with.

[gke]

I am perfectly aware of the difference between nationality and language, but I couldn't care less about political correctness when trying to find an efficient way of achieving things in word processing. So, let it be text, I don't mind, only it would unnecessarily confuse things since the OS does use flags to indicate the keyboard layout one is using. In terms of consistency across the applications it would therefore make sense to stick to one system. Anyway, whether you use text or flags is a side-issue - what is important is whether there are people who would principally object to coupling hyphenation, spelling etc. to a style named after a particular language, no matter whether this is a state language, a minority language or a dialect.

[nicka]

My suggestion is to have all language-related stuff on Character Style level (including automatic dictionary selection and hyphenation).

I wonder what will happen when someone has a paragraph with several languages in it, though, each (potentially) to be written in italics, bold, sub-and superscript. I need almost all the character style variations just for writing in English. I wouldn't want to have to duplicate them for French, German, Spanish... And anyway, there just wouldn't be enough.

Conceptually there seems to me to be a huge difference between the typeface distinctions we use character style variations for: roman/italic/bold, and the distinction between different languages.

Also the granularity is wrong, as someone said on this thread some time back. Generally the distinction between languages is only sensible at a word (or morpheme) level, and for many scripts (alphabets particularly) that's not the character level.

[nicka]

political correctness when trying to find an efficient way of achieving things in word processing. So, let it be text, I don't mind, only it would unnecessarily confuse things since the OS does use flags to indicate the keyboard layout one is using

Well, if someone wants to use a national or regional flag for a language style that should be up to them. I might define a language style for my idiolect and use a picture of myself as the icon. (I'm joking, but there's no real reason why not, if I have my own idiosyncratic spelling preferences.)

But Mellel can do better than the operating system here -- not in 'political correctness' -- but in conceptual clarity and versatility. If we are considering language styles at all, then we are imagining some way of yoking together (at least) scripts, keyboard layouts and spelling dictionaries in user-defined ways. That's more versatile than what the OS does, so it will need separate indication, within Mellel.

[transalpin]

If we are considering language styles at all, then we are imagining some way of yoking together (at least) scripts, keyboard layouts and spelling dictionaries in user-defined ways.

Nicka,
the flags in Mac OS X mean “country”, not “language”: The German keyboard has its name because this is the predominant layout for keyboards in Germany. One could type in German on any other keyboard which is based on the Latin script.

I wonder what will happen when someone has a paragraph with several languages in it, though, each (potentially) to be written in italics, bold, sub-and superscript.

This has always been a limit of Style Variations, you cannot combine them. I can’t think of an example for the case described above, but creating Character Styles for languages rather than Variations might solve the problem.

Don’t get confused by the term “Character Style”. It only means that it doesn’t apply to the whole paragraph, opposed to “Paragraph Styles”.

But seriously, who of us really expects any of the proposed methods to find its way into Mellel within, say, the next three years? I don’t think that it would be too difficult to implement, but despite the echo in the poll, I assume that the Redlers fail to see its use.

[Hans-Reinhard Koch]

But seriously, who of us really expects any of the proposed methods to find its way into Mellel within, say, the next three years? I don’t think that it would be too difficult to implement, but despite the echo in the poll, I assume that the Redlers fail to see its use.

Eleven posts since my "topic revival" post a few hours ago, and the large number of poll voters are a good argument. This should show the Redlers that we do care about this feature in a multilingual word processor. Hopefully they will come up with something K.I.S.S. soon, even if it does not yet answer all the questions raised in this forum.

On the other hand: Cross referencing and indexing are more urgent festures, if you ask me.

[rpcameron]

I hadn't thought of this thread in a while, and it is good to see it revived. However, I must come in with a different approach here:

I would like to see language-level settings applied on a meta-level somewhere between character and paragraph styles. This language level would include settings for text direction, spelling, hyphenation and perhaps script and/or font family. It would make sense to move the script setting out of character and up to this level, but arguments could be made either way for font families.

As far as indicating which language is selected, what is wrong with 2- or 3-letter ISO codes to indicate language? EN, ES, FR, DE, GR, RU, JP, CN, EO — it is quite simple. And, if you want to specify more fine-grained control over spelling variation, the ISO system allows for locales to be specified, too: EN-US, EN-UK, ES-MX, FR-CA, DE-CH ... for anyone using any of those languages (and possibly locales), the abbreviations should be immediately recognizable.

But, I agree that there are a few more pressing features we would like to see implemented first: cross-referencing and indexing, marginalia (for more flexible notes, annotations and comments), glossing, and paragraph/column syncing (to allow for side-by-side translation or glossing).

[nicka]

I must come in with a different approach here:

I would like to see language-level settings applied on a meta-level somewhere between character and paragraph styles. This language level would include settings for text direction, spelling, hyphenation and perhaps script and/or font family.

That seems to me like agreement, not difference. Could a consensus be emerging?

But, I agree that there are a few more pressing features we would like to see implemented first: cross-referencing and indexing...

There's certainly a consensus on that one ...

[psychomachine]

Hi guys.

I would like to urge the Redlers to give this long and interesting thread another read and to please let us know what their thoughts are -- and if and when we can expect to see the ability to mark languages for spell-checking in Mellel.

For many of us who do academic writing, quoting in foreign languages is a rule, not an exception, and having the ability (with a nice shortcut) to mark a certain portion of text as French, Russian or Chinese would greatly improve our work and certainly make Mellel a much better, multilingual word processor.

All best,
Psych

[Roger]

I made a similar request here:

http://forum.redlers.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1602

My request is to have the (spell check) language "follow" the keyboard layout.

I whole-heartedly agree that this would be a great benefit to multi-lingual Mellel users.

Thanks!

[Hans-Reinhard Koch]

I am very glad that this topic is revived. Now as Mellel 2.5 is in the testing process, the Redlers will not have the energy to discuss options for 2.6. But once 2.5 is out this will be one of the top priorities (along with indexing) and better figure handling (Text float around images, and tEx-like figure placement, allowing figures to be anchored in the text and automatically placed near the text without empty half pages, when a figure does not fit). Now back to language styles:

However, I must come in with a different approach here:

I would like to see language-level settings applied on a meta-level somewhere between character and paragraph styles. This language level would include settings for text direction, spelling, hyphenation and perhaps script and/or font family. It would make sense to move the script setting out of character and up to this level, but arguments could be made either way for font families.

I would not like the idea of another language level somewhere between character and paragraph levels. The character level (which is actually a range-of-characters level) is the appropriate place. In multilingual writing we have, of course, multilingual paragraphs. So putting e.g. the hyphenation option into the paragraph level does not allow correct hyphenation in multilingual paragraphs and I don't like the idea of ad hoc hyphenation with "ctrl / – " in such situations.

Attaching hyphenation, spellchecking, quote style, etc. (direction and font are already there) to the character level would make it possible to define style variations for different languages to be used in one paragraph.

But: I am not perfectly happy with 8 distinct slots for 8 style variations (with gobal names defined in the preferences). I would much prefer to have a variable number of style variations that can be named individually within the character style. E.g. I may want to have bold, italic, super- and subscript, and what-have-you as style variations in one character style. And I may want German, English, French and Greek and all of them also italic in another character style. As it is now, the great idea of style variations is not flexible enough.

Lets the Redlers get 2.5 out, and then lets pester them with new ideas.

Best regards
Hans-Reinhard