Bibliography feature questions

[Shayne]

I seem to be experiencing trouble with the bibliography feature in Mellel (linked to Bookends). My trouble, I think, is what I perceive as a lack of control over how citations appear. I suspect many of the following are actually possible and would appreciate any tips on how to accomplish them.

In the body of my text or a note I would like to input a citation. The citation format is simple: “Redlers 2005”. This is how I would like the format to appear and it does until I verify the citation. Then it changes to “Redlers, 2005, Journal of Mellel, 25, 1-25” But I only want it to ever appear in my text as “Redlers 2005” so I must, as I understand it, edit the citation and manually type in “Redlers 2005” in the formatted citation field and then set display to “Final Citation”. If that is not bad enough, however, when I create my bibliography, the note then gets changed back to a full citation. Why can I not just keep the citation as “Redlers 2005”? Am I missing something? What is the point of a manual override--which is what I take the “Formatted Citation” field to be (although I suspect it is not intended to be so)--if I cannot display the citation as I want?

The closest I can get to what I want is by using the “Date Only” function. This is neat, but it is very limited. My citation, for instance, now becomes “2005” and “Redlers” must be typed in manually and does not actually form part of the citation. Moreover, some of my citations have complicated dates, e.g., “Redlers 2005 [1998]” or “Redlers 1998-2005 [1986-1995]”. Formats such as this just seem to get deleted.

The simplest solution, to my mind, would be to have a manual override. I do not want Bookends or Mellel to change any of my citations. They should appear as they are input. While I understand the benefit of having them expanded by Mellel, etc., this should not be the only option. It is basically unusable for my purposes.

Any comments or suggestions would be most appreciated.

Shayne

[matthias]

Shayne,

it seems you have not properly set the format in Bookends. Without going into details too much, Bookends serves as a database from which Mellel receives information on how to format a given reference when scanning the document. In order for this to work, you have to enter reference information in Bookends and set the format for the final citation and their appearance in the bibliography. Then you enter citations in Mellel from Bookends (y-command). The field final citation will only show how Bookends formatted the citation after the scan. This is why any manual modification will be overridden after rescanning the document.
So, bottom line of this: You will have to set the format in Bookends in order to serve your needs. The format you described is easily handled by Bookends. For further information refer to the Bookends manual. You might also consider the Bookends tutorial which is very good.

Matthias

[jb]

The simplest solution, to my mind, would be to have a manual override. I do not want Bookends or Mellel to change any of my citations. They should appear as they are input. While I understand the benefit of having them expanded by Mellel, etc., this should not be the only option.

I've had a similar difficulty. This is really a Bookends issue, so you may want to ask on that forum, too.

The appearance of the formatted citation is controlled in BE via the Biblio>Formats Manager. If in Mellel you double-click on a temporary citation to edit it, these changes will be lost when you scan.
My solution is to set up the formatted citation to be the minimum--for me, the author's name--and then add *in the regular text, not in the citation proper* page numbers, etc. Then when scanned the additions I've made remain.

I don't know about getting dates such as you're after--1999 [1986], and the like--maybe it's possible. I suggest trying the other forum.

The thing that took me a bit to figure out is that to get the formatted citation to be what I want I need to go to Biblio>Formats Manager, choose a Format, click on 'Edit', then choose 'Bib and Citation options', then choose 'Custom citation format'. This last item then needs to be edited (Biblio>Formats Manager, choose a Format, click on 'Edit') to be what you want to see as the formatted citation. You have to get your hands dirty with the 'code' for author, date, etc. but it's not too bad.

HTH,
James

[matthias]

The thing that took me a bit to figure out is that to get the formatted citation to be what I want I need to go to Biblio>Formats Manager, choose a Format, click on 'Edit', then choose 'Bib and Citation options', then choose 'Custom citation format'. This last item then needs to be edited (Biblio>Formats Manager, choose a Format, click on 'Edit') to be what you want to see as the formatted citation. You have to get your hands dirty with the 'code' for author, date, etc. but it's not too bad.

I elaborated a little on this here: http://forum.redlers.com/viewtopic.php? ... highlight=. You should chose "Author and Date" as your citation format.

Matthias

[Shayne]

Thanks for the suggestions. I have reposted with an additional query in the BE forum.

The format you described is easily handled by Bookends.
...
You should chose "Author and Date" as your citation format.
Matthias

This is true with regard to simple author-date format, but unless I am mistaken, there seems to be no way to handle complex dates such as continuous dates (Redlers 1994-1998) or original publication dates (Redlers 1994-1998 [1956-1968]), etc.

Shayne

[Shayne]

Clearly, I was mistaken. I was able to handle complex dates by creating a new format for the citation.

I still have the following problem (also posted at BE):

Authors’ names in Japanese, for instance, do not work with the “date only” %. In order to keep Japanese (and Chinese) word order and to include original orthography, a comma is used in Bookends to keep the authors’ (and editors') name as one unit: e.g., "Tanaka Taro 田中太郎,". When scanned, I want the in-text citation simply to say "Tanaka 2005", but it comes out as "Tanaka Taro 田中太郎 2005".

Thanks again,
Shayne

[matthias]

Authors’ names in Japanese, for instance, do not work with the “date only” %. In order to keep Japanese (and Chinese) word order and to include original orthography, a comma is used in Bookends to keep the authors’ (and editors') name as one unit: e.g., "Tanaka Taro 田中太郎,". When scanned, I want the in-text citation simply to say "Tanaka 2005", but it comes out as "Tanaka Taro 田中太郎 2005".

I am not sure what you mean by keeping authors' names "as one unit". Nevertheless, if you have "Tanaka Taro 田中太郎" in either the authors or the editors field Bookends will output this as you described.

In order to get only "Tanaka" only as name you should enter only "Tanaka, Taro" – I assume Tanaka is the author's surename, Then set the output of names to "Surename only". If you need 田中太郎 in other formats you should use one of the user defined fields for that, you could call it "Original Name" or something of that sort.

Matthias

[Shayne]

Hi Matthias,

On keeping the author’s name as one unit, please see page 17 of the BE manual: “If the author is an institution, place a comma after the last character and Bookends will not attempt to format it when creating a bibliography.” This is what Jon recommended for using CJK names in Bookends.

You are correct in that Tanaka is a surname.

When citing a Japanese publication, in the bibliography I always need it to be in the format “Surname space First name original orthography”. BE handles this well, but the whole idea of not having the original name in a separate field is because of the limited number of fields in BE, especially when one also needs to do this for editors, etc. Moreover, I never need a comma between the surname and first name. So even if I were to put the original name in a separate field, I suspect I would still end up with a comma between the surname and the first name, which is the last thing I need.

Thanks for your help.
Shayne

[ozean]

ah, too bad – I posted a reply in the Bookends forum, but reading this thread, some of the issues are either addressed already or have shifted.

So even if I were to put the original name in a separate field, I suspect I would still end up with a comma between the surname and the first name, which is the last thing I need.

If you define a custom citation format (you really need to do this with your requirements, I fear) you have full control over when and where a comma appears or not.
Of course, that does not help you overcome the limited number of fields issue…