Book Layout Two-Up PDF

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AKMA
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Book Layout Two-Up PDF

Post by AKMA »

I have a very simple goal, that evidently involves complex obstacles.

My simple goal is to produce documents that resemble pages photocopied from a book (not the stray black space or tilted copy, but the general appearance -- that is, two-up layout, with page numbers, notes, running headers, and so on).

I've been able to produce the sort of page I want in Mellel; that was relatively easy. I've made a 5.5 x 8.5 (US half-letter) page with exactly the format I want. When I try to print this to two-up PDFs through the Layout option in Apple's print engine, though, somewhere the process adds an extra increment of margin, so that the pages shrink to roughly a third-of-a-page -- tiny body copy with oceanic margins.

Is there a way to circumvent Apple's extra margin? Is there some other way to attain the goal I suggest?
jannuss
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Re: Book Layout Two-Up PDF

Post by jannuss »

AKMA wrote:Is there a way to circumvent Apple's extra margin? Is there some other way to attain the goal I suggest?
Doesn't the problem lie with the application doing the printing?

For example, if you use GraphicConverter to print a pdf, there's an option to set the scale and/or margins of the page. Preview only has a scale option.

Janet
AKMA
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Re: Book Layout Two-Up PDF

Post by AKMA »

I just tried printing through Graphic Converter, and it does the same thing I've described; it adds a band of margin around the (half-)page it lines up for the PDF. Likewise Mellel -- so I'm inclined to think that there's an Apple routine in there somewhere.

NeoOffice generates a correct PDF, but at the cost of Mellel's ease-of-use and typographic controls.
jannuss
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Re: Book Layout Two-Up PDF

Post by jannuss »

Let's backup one step . . . how did you get your two half pages into a single-page pdf in the first place? Maybe the problem lies there.

Also, what are the Document and Page setups you use to create the half page?

Janet
palazzo
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Re: Book Layout Two-Up PDF

Post by palazzo »

The only workaround I know to the extra margin is to go to Page Setup and set a zoom of 110% or so (this zoom works in my printer for a 2-up layout of A4 pages; ymmv).
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AKMA
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Re: Book Layout Two-Up PDF

Post by AKMA »

Ugh, OK.

Document Setup (File Menu): Facing Pages, .5" Top, .75" right, 1" bottom, .75" left

Page Setup (File Menu): User-Defined paper size, 5.5" x 8.5" portrait orientation

Then when printing, I choose the "Layout" option of two-up pringint, side by side. Print to PDF via the button at lower left in the dialog box.

I think that gives you what you should need; am I leaving out some essential ingredient?
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Re: Book Layout Two-Up PDF

Post by jannuss »

I won't have time to play around with this today, so just a question:

I notice when you define a new custom paper size in Page Setup/Paper Size/Manage Custom Sizes, there's an option for user defined printer margins. Have you tried working with this? Does it help/affect your output?

Janet
AKMA
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Re: Book Layout Two-Up PDF

Post by AKMA »

I spent some time this morning fiddling with "printer margins" and the scaling; neither seems to make a decisive difference. So far.
jannuss
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Re: Book Layout Two-Up PDF

Post by jannuss »

OK, I've taken some time to play around with two-up PDF and I have no difficulty producing two proper (correctly sized) pages per sheet.

Here's what I've done (I have a metric system with A4 paper in the printer, so everything is based on 20.99x29.70 cm):

In Page Set-up, I created a custom size named test -- width=14.80, height=20.99, printer margins set for the HP deskjet standard, portrait orientation

In Document Set-up, Facing pages selected, top & bottom - 1.5cm, inside=0.75 cm, outside=1.5cm

In Print/Layout, Pages per Sheet = 2

The only difference I see between what you've done and what I've done is that the width in my "test" setup is slightly less than half of the actual physical width of the paper.

Why don't you try a setup with width = 5.45 inches?

Janet
AKMA
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Re: Book Layout Two-Up PDF

Post by AKMA »

Janet,

Thanks for your trouble. I remain utterly mystified, though; I follow your steps precisely (mutatis mutandis, US Letter) and I get the same reduced-size results as ever. Mind you, the PDF itself looks all right (a little smallish when I open it in Preview), but when I print it, the page area comes out tiny.

And I get similar results when using Pages; not when I use NeoOffice (which exports to PDF through its own algorithms, I expect).

Either I'm in the midst of a genuine conundrum, or I'm overlooking something so intensely, screamingly obvious that no one has considered it possible so far. My lurking intuition suggests that my problem lies in the interaction of different page orientations -- portrait for the individual pages, landscape for the two-up, not sure what effect the PDF mediation has -- but I don't know where that would be causing this effect, nor (of course) whether it's the problem at all.

Would it help if I posted the files I'm producing somewhere?
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Re: Book Layout Two-Up PDF

Post by jannuss »

AKMA wrote: My lurking intuition suggests that my problem lies in the interaction of different page orientations -- portrait for the individual pages, landscape for the two-up
You may be right about the portrait/landscape business.

If I print straight from Mellel I get the same results you get [greatly reduced printing]. I got the clean printout from GraphicConverter:
-- size = Enlarge/reduce area to fit page
-- smart print orientation selected
-- margins all = 0.0

Janet
AKMA
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Re: Book Layout Two-Up PDF

Post by AKMA »

Excellent!

Now, to clarify: Had you produced a two-up PDF from Mellel (via Print menu) that you then printed directly from Graphic Converter with the settings you describe, or did you produce a single-page PDF from Mellel, which you then made two-up via the print command from GC?

(I've been trying variations on this theme, to no avail; I seem to be getting the same extra margins no matter which variation I try.)
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Re: Book Layout Two-Up PDF

Post by jannuss »

AKMA wrote: Now, to clarify: Had you produced a two-up PDF from Mellel (via Print menu) that you then printed directly from Graphic Converter with the settings you describe, or did you produce a single-page PDF from Mellel, which you then made two-up via the print command from GC?
I produced the two-up pdf from Mellel and then opened the pdf in GraphicConverter
but
I suspect that isn't the issue.

The point here is that GraphicConverter provides the options to micro-manage the print outcome. In our case the Smart Print Orientation option seems to be the important one. It forces the printout into landscape mode.

I find this problem fascinating and I very much would like to come up with a clear solution, but the fact is that you have a real world issue to deal with . . . may I suggest another option. Mostly I use Mellel to produce A5 size booklets. I prepare all my work in A4 using a set of character styles I selected that reduce well to A5. When the job is finished I send the pdf [layout-1 page per sheet] to the printer who then prints the booklets in 2 pages per sheet format. It's a no-brainer for him; he charges me regular rates according to the number of A4 sheets I need. You might consider it.

Janet
AKMA
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Re: Book Layout Two-Up PDF

Post by AKMA »

Janet, thank you for your time and advice. I have been worrying this problem partly because it involves (as you say) real-world production matters -- but those are relatively insignificant, since I print mostly materials for academic purposes, where nobody expects anything other than Times New Roman single- or double-spaced with one-inch margins. Functional footnotes are the height of production enhancement, in this world. I want to (and, using NeoOffice with its inherent limitations, I do) produce materials in the format I've been describing because I think the two-column, two-page layout that books have made familiar would constitute a very great improvement in ease-of-reading. But it's not as though I'm going to lose a sales account or anything.

The other reason I've been gnawing on this puzzle is simply that it ought not to be a problem; if I tell my computer to print two half-pages side by side on a full page, it ought to do that easily and predictably. The fact that we're going through such acrobatics to make it happen indicates a lapse in interface design and programming that I do think important.

But not so important that you ought to squander more time on alleviating my pet obsession -- thanks very much.
jannuss
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Re: Book Layout Two-Up PDF

Post by jannuss »

AKMA wrote:The other reason I've been gnawing on this puzzle is simply that it ought not to be a problem; if I tell my computer to print two half-pages side by side on a full page, it ought to do that easily and predictably.
This is going to blow your mind:

Out of curiosity, I instructed Mellel to print one of my regular documents with Two-up layout [number of pages per sheet = 2] -- remember, these are documents which I prepare in A4 size but print as A5 -- The result was perfect.

In other words, the "mistake" you made was in being too clever. You created a half US-letter format in order to work in WYSIWYG mode. But, when you attempted to put two half pages together on one whole page for printout the system croaked! It looks to me that the designers of the Layout options didn't anticipated that anyone would try work in half-page format.

So, sadly, the solution is this: forget your half-page set-up. Prepare your document in full US letter format and convert it to half-size only at print out. You'll need to spend a little time (as I did with my first booklet) selecting character styles that reduce well. For example, I usually use 14 and 15-point character sizes in my A4 pages instead of the 12 and 13-points I would use with A5.

Janet
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