Hebrew Punctuation Problem

[gmorahg]

I have a problem with punctuation when writing Hebrew right to left on my Mellel 2.5. When typed, punctuation marks appear on the extreme right rather than in their proper position. They move to the correct position when a new character is added, EXCEPT after I hit "Return". After each "Return" the punctuation mark stays at the extreme right of the above line, when it should be on the left.
How to fix this?
Thanks,
Gilead

[shades]

Howdy. Do you have justify selected? as opposed to left justify or right justify?

[gmorahg]

Thanks, but I just tried it and the same thing happened.
G.

[rwebber]

Set your writing direction for right to left text entry by toggling the icon on the ruler.
Regards,
Ron

Picture 1.jpg

[jannuss]

Another option, if the entire document is Right-to-Left orientation, is to set the Binding Direction in File/Document Set-up.

You might also want to take a look at the Tutorial on writing Hebrew on the Tips, Guides, and Tutorials page of the RedleX website
http://www.redlers.com/supporttutorials.html

Janet

[gmorahg]

Problem not solved. I guess I didn't explain it clearly enough. I can write Hebrew right to left easily, but the punctuation marks (commas, periods and question marks) appear at the right (beginning) of the line and stay there when I hit return. So I can't finish a paragraph with a period. Here is an example:
המצב קשה.

The right to left icon has been toggled and all the instructions on the Hebrew tutorial have been followed.
I didn't have this problem when I first downloaded Mellel and set up Hebrew, but now I can't bring it back to where it was.

I hope this is clearer and someone can help.
Thanks,
Gilead

[jannuss]

I can write Hebrew right to left easily, but the punctuation marks (commas, periods and question marks) appear at the right (beginning) of the line and stay there when I hit return.

Gilead,

Let's get specific

1. what font(s) are you using? which is your main font and which your secondary font?
2. have you selected "Hebrew Script" for your secondary font?
3. what justification [alignment] are you using
[the four boxes on the upper left of the Mellel window are, from the left, left alignment, center alignment, right alignment, and justify (align both right and left)
4. have you selected Right-to-Left paragraph direction (the fifth button on the upper left)?
5. what paragraph style are you using? what is the paragraph direction defined for that style?
6. what binding direction appears in File/Document Setup?

If you open a new file and set all the direction indicators [items 4, 5, and 6 above] to Right-to-Left, does the problem persist?

Janet

[gmorahg]

Janet,
Thanks for getting specific. My responses are interspersed.
It looks like the only thing I don't have covered is a right to left paragraph style. I tried changing Regular copy to Regular with Hebrew (like my character style) and to Regular Right to Left, but this did not help.
What to do?

1. what font(s) are you using? which is your main font and which your secondary font?
The default main font is Geneva. The secondary font is Lucinda Grande.

2. have you selected "Hebrew Script" for your secondary font?
Yes.

3. what justification [alignment] are you using
[the four boxes on the upper left of the Mellel window are, from the left, left alignment, center alignment, right alignment, and justify (align both right and left)
Align Right

4. have you selected Right-to-Left paragraph direction (the fifth button on the upper left)?
Yes

5. what paragraph style are you using? what is the paragraph direction defined for that style?
THE PARAGRAPH STYLE IS REGULAR COPY. DO I NEED TO CHANGE THIS? TO WHAT? HOW?

6. what binding direction appears in File/Document Setup?
I tried changing to Right to Left, but the problem was there.
If you open a new file and set all the direction indicators [items 4, 5, and 6 above] to Right-to-Left, does the problem persist?

Yes, but the paragraph style does not indicate a direction.

[jannuss]

5. what paragraph style are you using? what is the paragraph direction defined for that style?
THE PARAGRAPH STYLE IS REGULAR COPY. DO I NEED TO CHANGE THIS? TO WHAT? HOW?

6. what binding direction appears in File/Document Setup?
I tried changing to Right to Left, but the problem was there.

OK, we're getting closer
REGULAR and REGULAR Copy sound like default Mellel paragraph styles. These will have the tpying direction set to Left-to-Right.
This shouldn't be a problem, but if you like, you can make a new paragraph style called REGULAR HEBREW which is Right-to-Left.
-- click Style Set/Edit Style Sets
-- click on REGULAR COPY under the paragraph list
-- click on copy [set button from the left]
-- rename the new style, edit it [third button], and save it

Now, what do you mean "the problem was there" in the binding direction? Could you change it? What happened after you changed it?

I've tried every combination I can think of to recreate your problem, but as long as the arrow on the upper left of the Mellel window is facing left, my punctuation is entered correctly.

[gmorahg]

Janet,

I appreciate your patience and your persistence.

Creating a Regular Hebrew paragraph style did not solve the problem.
Changing the binding direction also did not solve the problem.

Basically, this is the same punctuation problem I have when writing email messages with my Hebrew keyboard.

One bright note: I tried copying some Hebrew text that was written before this problem occurred and inserting new text above it. the punctuation worked fine even after I erased the original text. The only difference I could see from my current settings is that the Paragraph Style that is selected is "par.style 1+" does this mean anything to you? I created a new style with that name, but that didn't help.

I guess if all else fails, I could always use an old file to create a new one, but it sure would be nice to figure things out. Any more suggestions?
Gilead

[jannuss]

Creating a Regular Hebrew paragraph style did not solve the problem.
Changing the binding direction also did not solve the problem.

Basically, this is the same punctuation problem I have when writing email messages with my Hebrew keyboard.

Two things,

1. if you are using Mail, you can get Hebrew to work more or less correctly by changing the alignment [as we do with Mellel].
-- in Mail, click Format/Alignment/Writing Direction/Right to Left
-- this should automatically set Format/Alignment/Align Right
[sometimes Mail gets a little confused and then it helps to toggle the alignment and/or writing direction back and forth]

2. about your Mellel problem: it's beginning to sound more and more like bug and/or corruption in the file. Also possible, but far less likely, is corruption in the fonts.

Let's do a test
-- open a new file and leave everything at the default settings [Binding direction = Left-to-Right, Regular paragraph style with alignment to the left and writing direction Left-to-Right]
-- using the Main Font Palette, select a regular Apple font that you don't normally use, say Helvetica [do not set a Secondary Font]
---- now, switch your keyboard to Hebrew and type in some sentences. What happens?
---- change the writing direction [arrow on the upper left] to Right-to-Left and type some sentences. What happens?
-- using the Secondary Font, select Hebrew script and chose another Apple font, say Times
---- repeat the experiment

Janet

[gmorahg]

I conducted the experiment and in each of the four cases the results were the same as before:
שלום, שלום.
Does this tell you anything?

Gilead

[jannuss]

I conducted the experiment and in each of the four cases the results were the same as before:
שלום, שלום.
Does this tell you anything?

There's definitely something very wrong here -- somehow Mellel is ignoring the writing direction switch.

Make a sample file and send it with a brief explanation to support@redlers.com

And, by the way, does my fix for Mail work or is that also broken on your system?

Janet

[gmorahg]

Thanks, Janet. I will follow up.

I wasn't quite sure which Mail you were referring to. I use Thunderbird for my email. Any ideas about that?

With admiration for your expertise and willingness to help,
Gilead

[jannuss]

I use Thunderbird for my email. Any ideas about that?

I checked mozilla.com and mozilla.org.il and couldn't find any mention of right-to-left capabilities in Thunderbird.

If it's not too much trouble, make a test with OSX Mail just to see if you can get right-to-left Hebrew text.

Janet