MathType and Catalina

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DavidH
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MathType and Catalina

Post by DavidH » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:18 am

To judge from discussions in this forum, a good number of Mellel owners have relied on MathType to add equations and formulas to Mellel documents. A year or so back Wiris took over the development of MathType from Design Science. The other day Wiris wrote to owners of their newest version (like me) warning us that no 64 bit version of MathType will be ready when Catalina is released this month; no existing versions of MathType will run under Catalina. So anyone who needs MathType for day to day work should delay upgrading to Catalina for the time being. Wiris isn’t yet sure how long it will take to finish a compatible version.

A competing product with a very similar interface that I’ve used in the past is MathMagic. But the last time I contacted them they had no plans for a 64-bit version.

macsailor
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Re: MathType and Catalina

Post by macsailor » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:02 am

Have you tried LaTeXiT instead? It may work (I haven't used in in years) with both Mellel and Catalina.
Peter Edwardsson
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DavidH
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Re: MathType and Catalina

Post by DavidH » Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:00 pm

Thanks for the suggestion.

laup
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Re: MathType and Catalina

Post by laup » Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:08 pm

Wiris has announced its MathType "solution" for Mac Users. It will depend on using Word 365. They say that MathType 8 for Catalina/Big Sur will not happen "in the foreseeable future" because they see the way ahead for MathType as being embedded as an Add-in or Add-on. No editing of equations from old documents.

https://lp.wiris.com/catalina/

This is bad news. Have Mellel users with Catalina or Big Our found good solutions? Since I have delayed upgrading from Mojave, I can't test option like LibreOffice/Math. I suppose that I will be able to write equations in Word and copy/paste images into Mellel, but that's ugly.
Paul

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Re: MathType and Catalina

Post by Amontillado » Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:20 pm

I occasionally need math in a document. When that comes up, I create images of LaTeX equations in Keynote and save the Keynote file with the Mellel document. That lets me edit the equations. For my light usage, it works.

Things I write that involve notes go in a folder with supporting information, or in a Devonthink database.

Anything that's Word-based is not something I want to use. If I start using Word, I'll get lazy regarding styles and I'll get tugged into an ecosystem that just doesn't fit my taste.

DavidH
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Re: MathType and Catalina

Post by DavidH » Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:10 pm

Dear Paul,

I feel your pain.

Until recently Wiris said it was working on a version of MathType that would work across applications in newer versions of the Mac OS, but changes in how the OS operates had already led its old competitor, MathMagic, to give up. It looks like Wiris is giving up as well.

I haven’t used LibreOffice, but LibreOffice Math produces formulas in ODF format, and I don’t see any way to import such files into Mellel. Documentation makes it look as if you can export formulas made in Math to other formats if you use Libre Office Draw as an intermediary, but that’s another step. And in any case the formatting of Math formulas looks pretty primitive compared to what could be done in the old MathType.

I’ve been experimenting with LaTeXiT. It’s not a palette equation editor in quite the same sense. You need to learn how to “write” equations in LaTeX, not that hard, and you need to install and maintain MacTex or some simpler LaTeX system to actually use it (not that hard once you take the plunge). You can get beautiful equations this way with considerable control over fonts and such. You can save frequently used formulas in the app for easy reuse. And it’s easy to get placed formulas back into LaTeXiT for reediting. But I’ve not yet devised a satisfying work flow. The problem is that when I place a formula as an inline graphic in Mellel, the bottom edge of the formula coincides with the baseline of the surrounding text, so the formula looks too high up. Mellel lets you place such an equation as an inline graphic and then adjust its placement downward relative to the surrounding text, but I haven’t found a good way to automate the process.

When it comes to re-editing MathType equations in existing documents, I don’t see any way to get that done under Catalina or Big Sur.

laup
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Re: MathType and Catalina

Post by laup » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:12 pm

David, my current analysis is as follows:

1. If I am being practical, then
--using Word 365 to create or edit equations for Mellel will be relatively painless for me since I have Office 365 anyway
--to edit pre-existing MathType equations, the only solution I know of is to create a virtual machine with Mojave and the old MathType. Retyping would probably be faster.
2. If I am being more stubborn,I see working through LaTeXiT as the best option, as you discuss. I would hope that Eyal would modify Mellel so that it could accept equations from the LaTeX world in much the same way as Keynote does. I have not experimented much with this, but it seems that Keynote handles the baselining. You might try this a bit, since you're farther along in experimenting with the LaTeX side.
Paul

DavidH
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Re: MathType and Catalina

Post by DavidH » Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:08 am

I think that's precisely right. I have Word myself but I'd given up on MathType a while back because they weren't getting anything going in Catalina and Big Sur, which I needed. My one caution is you might have baseline issues of your own copying from Word to Mellel. Good luck.

As to my own situation, I plan to make a feature request for help with baselines and LaTeX once I have a clearer idea how it should work.

laup
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Re: MathType and Catalina

Post by laup » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:38 pm

I tested copying to Mellel a MathType equation from the new Microsoft Word 365 Add-in. If added in-line with text, the result is offset by a couple of points, which can be adjusted by recognizing the the equation is a picture, editing the picture (pencil icon), and changing position downward. In my case, this meant -2 pts.

For equations appearing on separate lines, the equations appeared ok to my eye.
Paul

DavidH
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Re: MathType and Catalina

Post by DavidH » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:15 am

Thanks so much for this.

laup
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Re: MathType and Catalina: the New Add-In and Editing Old Equations

Post by laup » Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:51 pm

This is an update as of June 26, 2021 on using MathType via Office 365 and Big Sur. It may soon become outdated.

I updated my iMac to Big Sur, opened Word, added the new MathType add-in, wrote some equations, and copied/pasted to Mellel. I had to adjust vertical position by 1 point to make things look right. The offset needed may be different for different computers/operating systems/styles.

CAUTION: As of today, the Word 365 MathType add-in for Catalina and Mojave is still not finished. There are still blurbs referring to Beta status. The Wiris people tell me that my installation is ok, that the feature is indeed still a beta with some clunkiness and a number of known limitations that will be fixed soon. Also, the licensing mechanism is not yet included. When it is (a few months?), those with MathType 7 licenses will be able to use their old license number. In the meantime, it's free.

CAUTION: during this interim period, I find that it is also easy to run into trouble. To use the MathType add-in, one must click on the red Mathtype Icon (a square root), which opens a window that has a button "Open MathType". If instead you click on the text label "MathType" on Word's same top menu (the one with Home, Insert, Draw, etc.), you will be firing up the old MathType 7. If you've upgraded to Catalina or Mojave, this will not work and everything will seem broken.

EDITING OLD EQUATIONS. Finally, and this is important, upon request, Wiris provided me with a work-around for converting pre-existing MathType equations to MathType equations editable in the Word 365 add-in. This is a temporary measure as they work on a more permanent solution. I feel that I should not quote from their email to me, but I assume that Wiris will send the recipe to anyone requesting it. It invovles using Convert Equation and working through MathML as an intermediate state.

None of this is what we Mellel users would like, but it's all good news. By the way, Wiris' support staff has been prompt (same day) and very helpful.
Paul

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