Full-screen mode

[JohnP]

Excellent as Mellel is, there is one thing that annoys me about the way it handles full screen mode - that page breaks are not handled properly. Specifically, the problem is the result of extra line spaces that are inserted in order to keep paragraps together. In a page-style view (like Mellel view), this makes sense, because it's a fully WYSIWYG view mode - the extra space at the bottom of a page is visible and clear, separating the bottom of one paragraph from the bottom of the page, with the next paragraph starting at the top of the next page. In Compact mode, it doesn't make quite as much sense, but isn't too confusing because the page break is shown explicitly as a black line across the page (that is, there may be a line or two of white space before the page-break indicator line).

In full-screen mode, however, there is no visual indication of where page breaks are. But, despite this, the extra line spaces are still inserted. The appearance is thus of spurious line spaces between paragraphs, apparently at random. This is confusing (for me, at least) because it's not clear where the spaces are coming from while I'm writing. Especially if I am using variable line spacing to indicate things in the document (such as section breaks), this spurious extra space becomes confusing. However, even normally, it breaks the flow of the text and becomes a distraction.

Is there any chance that this could be changed, or at least an option provided to turn it off? Just having the black line like Compact mode would be good, because it would indicate why the space is occurring. Not displaying it at all would be even better - Full screen mode isn't a fully WYSIWYG mode.

(I appreciate, by the way, that this is a product of the "Keep together" function of the paragraph style. I can therefore stop it happening by changing the style definitions. But then I have to set the option again before each time I print, then unset it again afterwards - not ideal.)

[Nick Sloan]

(I appreciate, by the way, that this is a product of the "Keep together" function of the paragraph style. I can therefore stop it happening by changing the style definitions.)

I'm not sure that is the case: if you write one long paragraph that spans several pages in Mellel view, and then change to Full screen, you still get breaks between the "pages".

My understanding is that this is deliberate: someone has decided that it is a Good Thing. I disagree strongly (and I agree with JohnP). It is an anomalous bit of vestigial wysiwyg in a context where the user has consciously chosen to eschew page divisions. At the very least it should be subject to a preference.

[ptram]

I very much like the way full screen mode was implemented in Scrivener. There are two completely different environments: write in wysiwyg mode to watch at the finished page, or go to full screen to avoid any distraction from the user interface, the fonts and formatting. I wish something like this will appear in Mellel, sooner or later, since I find it very refreshing, very pleasant to work with.

Paolo

[Mart°n]

My understanding is that this is deliberate: someone has decided that it is a Good Thing. I disagree strongly (and I agree with JohnP). It is an anomalous bit of vestigial wysiwyg in a context where the user has consciously chosen to eschew page divisions.

I don’t think that the current implementation of the full screen view was a deliberate decision. I guess it was a “fast & easy” or a “quick & dirty” decision that was made because a lot of people wanted a full screen view. If you look closely, the full screen view is the very same as the compact view, without the page division line and with another (blank) interface but the core text view (how the text is rendered) is the same. And the text part of the compact view also is the same as of the Mellel view. So it’s always the same rendered text, sometimes with page margins, sometimes without, sometimes with a large white area around the text, sometimes without.
The thing that Mellel lacks is some sort of “plain text view”, similar to the one in a word processor of a popular office suite, that only displays the text without the formatting & styling. Such a text view could then be use for the full screen view as the text would be displayed independently from page margins and the like.
I think it could be a tricky task to built this all new text view and therefore the Redlers have taken the current view for the full screen mode. I think this was not done because they think it’s the best solution but rather because it could have been done in a short time.
As for the plain text view, there are a lot of decisions to make. Should the text displayed with a standardized font or with the chosen one, with or without styles, with or without images, tables, footnotes, auto-titles, markers… One could create a huge preference pane to set up all the things but I don’t think that this is the most clever solution.
I guess, that such a plain text view along with a new full screen view will be included in the future but I don’t know when.

[JohnP]

I want to note here that I am absolutely not wanting a "draft" mode that shows the text without formatting. I would like styles and effects to be shown. Even the line widths the same would be nice.

What I don't want is only those elements of formatting that only make sense when you can see the full page - particularly these extra line spaces caused by keeping lines together in a paragraph.

The only use for a draft mode (that I can see) is when the computer is not fast enough to display the formatted text properly. Mellel, however, runs nice and fast even on my little 500 MHz iBook. I like formatting - I just like it to make sense!

[Mart°n]

I want to note here that I am absolutely not wanting a "draft" mode that shows the text without formatting.

With “draft” I meant a mode where the text is independent from the paper, the page margins and the like. If you only modify the current full screen view in a way that the additional space won’t be displayed again, your problem would be solved but others will remain. Think of a text that fills 70% of the page and now you insert a picture with a height of 40% of the page. With a modified full screen mode, the picture will still cause a page break and you’ll see a large white area below the text and above the picture. Similar problems could occur with tables. So I think a good full screen mode requires a layout independent view. I personally prefer to see styled text too, but there may be people that prefer a clean style.

I would like styles and effects to be shown. Even the line widths the same would be nice.

Could be a way to go, but purists may like to see all the text in one font size, so that you could see it without any problem, no matter if you edit the 34pt headline or the 6pt footnote.
Test have shown that you could read text (only true for western languages) best with 60 to 80 characters in one line. While you couldn’t always achieve this goal in the final layout due to a style-guide you may need to follow, a independent full screen (or “plain” text view) could be a chance to edit your text with optimized settings for line width, line spacing, font size and a easy to look at color combination (foreground & background color) independently from your final layout.

The only use for a draft mode (that I can see) is when the computer is not fast enough to display the formatted text properly. Mellel, however, runs nice and fast even on my little 500 MHz iBook. I like formatting - I just like it to make sense!

Mellel 2.2.1 requires at least Mac OS 10.3 and even the slowest Mac, that could run OS 10.3 (the 233 MHz iMac I guess) is fast enough to render formatted text properly (but maybe not really fast), so this shouldn’t be an issue, but as mentioned above, a independent view (i wouldn’t call it “plain” text) offers new possibilities (but I don’t know, if someone needs them).

[edit] typos and the 2.3 thing

[macsailor]

Mellel 2.3 requires at least Mac OS 10.3 and even the slowest Mac, that could run OS 10.3 (the 233 MHz iMac I guess) is fast enough to render formatted text properly (but maybe not really fast), so this shouldn’t be an issue, but as mentioned above, a independent view (i wouldn’t call it “plain” text) offers new possibilities (but I don’t know, if someone needs them).

I guess you mean Mellel 2.2.1, not 2.3? As far as I know, the 2.3 is not available yet.

[Mart°n]

I guess you mean Mellel 2.2.1, not 2.3? As far as I know, the 2.3 is not available yet.

True, I meant 2.2.1 and mixed it up with the .3 from 10.3. Thanks for the correction.

[nicka]

For what it's worth, I like fullscreen mode how it is. I wouldn't use the fullscreen view if I couldn't see headers, footers and footnotes in it. What would happen if you inserted a footnote in a footnote-less fullscreen view?

Also I have no desire to see a view that drops the graphics, like Word's 'normal' view. I think the focus of the Redlers on getting Mellel's WYSIWYG to work absolutely right is much better than the Word approach where the normal view is effectively a text-only drafting mode and page-layout view is a rather creaky bolt-on addition to it.

The only addition to full-screen mode I would like is a line between pages, or, better, a small gutter (maybe not the right word). Oh, yes, and display of two facing pages side-by-side.

[ptram]

Nicka, shouldn't full screen mode be used to avoid distractions while writing, getting rid of all elements apart for text? If you see everything, even two facing pages, what's the difference with the normal wysiwyg view?

Paolo

[nicka]

Screen space. To see two facing pages and have text even close to legible on my 12" PowerBook, I will need to use the whole screen.

[Reiner]

I would say you're both right. Fact is that different people have different concepts of using the fullscreen view. So best for most users would be if there would be settings to define the behaviour of the fullscreen view in order to meet most needs.

[terceiro]

I would say you're both right. Fact is that different people have different concepts of using the fullscreen view. So best for most users would be if there would be settings to define the behaviour of the fullscreen view in order to meet most needs.

Except... that opens up a whole load of new questions: which options should they make available in fullscreen mode? And it sounds to me like an interface nightmare.

For all the praise of Scrivener's full screen, I find the footnote system there both ugly and unusable. They're not footnotes at all, in fact, but highlighted text that simply distracts me from the body text. (If I wanted to have a note to interrupt the middle of my paragraph, I'd have written a note in the middle of my paragraph. Footnotes go at the bottom. Always.) For Scrivener, a dopey footnote system makes the question of where to put them irrelevant (since they're always in the wrong spot).

For Mellel, in which I use footnotes all the time, I'd hate a view where those just disappear. I need to see them, and I need to see them when I'm typing. Perhaps, in fullscreen view, they could turn footnotes into endnotes and thus solve the page-break issue, but I don't see any other way to keep "just the writing" on screen and avoid page breaks.

If you really want a distraction-free environment for writing, use WriteRoom. When it's time to do anything complex (for which I don't find distraction an issue), I'd head back to Mellel.

[Timotheus]

Please don't touch the footnotes! I absolutely want to see them while working in full screen mode! Footnotes are the core of academic writing, and shouldn't be exiled to some distant place.

For me the present implementation of the Full Screen feature is, though perhaps not a masterpiece of elegancy, very 'workable'. I don't see any urgent need for changes.

[ptram]

If you really want a distraction-free environment for writing, use WriteRoom.

WriteRoom is evil. Scrivener is cool!

Paolo (currently writing two stories for the cinema in Scrivener and Mellel)