Sente in-text citation:How can I get "et al." italicized?

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waschbaer
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Sente in-text citation:How can I get "et al." italicized?

Post by waschbaer » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:18 am

Hi

I am using Sente as a reference manager for Mellel. How can I make the "et al." in the in-text citation italicized? I am using a modified version of the APA style in Sente and checked the box "italicize et al." in the Sente bibliography settings for in-text citations. However, in Mellel the et al. is still not italicized. Is there a solution?

Cheers...Martin

verma
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Re: Sente in-text citation:How can I get "et al." italicized?

Post by verma » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:24 pm

waschbaer wrote:Hi

I am using Sente as a reference manager for Mellel. How can I make the "et al." in the in-text citation italicized? I am using a modified version of the APA style in Sente and checked the box "italicize et al." in the Sente bibliography settings for in-text citations. However, in Mellel the et al. is still not italicized. Is there a solution?

Cheers...Martin
I'm afraid there isn't. Your Sente settings are fine, but the character style in Mellel generalizes the plain version. You can either italicize all, or nothing.
You can do a FInd & Replace for the "et al." bits in Mellel, and change them into italics afterwards.

I agree, two steps instead of one...

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Re: Sente in-text citation:How can I get "et al." italicized?

Post by TomEck » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:49 pm

I have similar problems and I have contacted the support directly but no answer till now.

@verma

That means even the settings in the Mellel bibliography preferences only effect the bibliography but not the in-text citation (either text body or footnotes)? That doesn't make any sense. Why can I modify the bibliography character style and paragraph style but not the in-text citations? Why can I tell Mellel to accept the reference manger character styles in the bibliography but not in the in-text citation? Why overwrites Mellel the style settings of the reference manager in the one case (in-text) but accept them in the other case (bibliography)?

I thought the Mellel bibliography preferences would make sense to apply the Mellel approach of independent character style settings and variations to have all the comfort for the citations which I have with other text.

There are several citation styles where I need to be able to define the style in the reference manager for every element in a citation completely independent. For example, very often it is required that the publication title is capitalised, in small capitals or italic characters. This is not only required in the bibliography but also for in-text references. Articles, for example, typically do not have any separate bibliography so that the full and correct formatted reference is to place in a footnote.

I really cannot believe that Mellel is in this-- at least for me--utmost important issue less flexible than other word processor (even with MS WORD I could do this easily!). In fact, to apply the basic style of the elements of a citation is part of the "job" of the reference manager. (Why else I have special citation style editors in any reference manger I know? Bookends and Sente are even "integrated" Mellel reference manager--at least I thought so..) Mellel should accept these settings of the reference manager or even better should allow to "translate" these settings into the Mellel approach (that was what I expected from the bibliography preference of Mellel).

The approach to search and replace the styles is not an option. It might be work for citation elements which are always the same (like "et. al.") but it would be a pain, if not impossible, to do so for citation elements which will differ (like the publication title, author names and so on). Imagine to search each element separately in a long document or even a book with ...

If your statement is correct, verma, that would be a "deal breaker" for me... I really hope that I will receive an other answer from the support...

Thomas

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Re: Sente in-text citation:How can I get "et al." italicized?

Post by verma » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:57 pm

TomEck wrote:I have similar problems and I have contacted the support directly but no answer till now.

@verma

That means even the settings in the Mellel bibliography preferences only effect the bibliography but not the in-text citation (either text body or footnotes)? That doesn't make any sense. Why can I modify the bibliography character style and paragraph style but not the in-text citations? Why can I tell Mellel to accept the reference manger character styles in the bibliography but not in the in-text citation? Why overwrites Mellel the style settings of the reference manager in the one case (in-text) but accept them in the other case (bibliography)?
That seems indeed to be the case. I suspect it doesn't work with '"et al." because that's hardly a bibliography entry in Sente (it's a kind of shortcut for the authors/editors). Other items (author, date, title) can be altered in the bibliography and perhaps also in-text refs - I only use authors and dates so I should check first before commenting further.
I thought the Mellel bibliography preferences would make sense to apply the Mellel approach of independent character style settings and variations to have all the comfort for the citations which I have with other text.

There are several citation styles where I need to be able to define the style in the reference manager for every element in a citation completely independent. For example, very often it is required that the publication title is capitalised, in small capitals or italic characters. This is not only required in the bibliography but also for in-text references. Articles, for example, typically do not have any separate bibliography so that the full and correct formatted reference is to place in a footnote.

I really cannot believe that Mellel is in this-- at least for me--utmost important issue less flexible than other word processor (even with MS WORD I could do this easily!). In fact, to apply the basic style of the elements of a citation is part of the "job" of the reference manager. (Why else I have special citation style editors in any reference manger I know? Bookends and Sente are even "integrated" Mellel reference manager--at least I thought so..) Mellel should accept these settings of the reference manager or even better should allow to "translate" these settings into the Mellel approach (that was what I expected from the bibliography preference of Mellel).

The approach to search and replace the styles is not an option. It might be work for citation elements which are always the same (like "et. al.") but it would be a pain, if not impossible, to do so for citation elements which will differ (like the publication title, author names and so on). Imagine to search each element separately in a long document or even a book with ...

If your statement is correct, verma, that would be a "deal breaker" for me... I really hope that I will receive an other answer from the support...

Thomas

TomEck
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Re: Sente in-text citation:How can I get "et al." italicized?

Post by TomEck » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:19 pm

verma wrote:
That seems indeed to be the case. I suspect it doesn't work with '"et al." because that's hardly a bibliography entry in Sente (it's a kind of shortcut for the authors/editors). Other items (author, date, title) can be altered in the bibliography and perhaps also in-text refs - I only use authors and dates so I should check first before commenting further.
Verma, "et al." is indeed a citation format setting in Sente as well as in Bookends. Typically "et al." is used only in in-text citations (and not in the bibliography) if you have to cite a reference with more than three authors. Sente and Bookends offer to define in which case "et al." should replace all authors except the first one.

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Re: Sente in-text citation:How can I get "et al." italicized?

Post by verma » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:01 pm

TomEck wrote:
verma wrote:
That seems indeed to be the case. I suspect it doesn't work with '"et al." because that's hardly a bibliography entry in Sente (it's a kind of shortcut for the authors/editors). Other items (author, date, title) can be altered in the bibliography and perhaps also in-text refs - I only use authors and dates so I should check first before commenting further.
Verma, "et al." is indeed a citation format setting in Sente as well as in Bookends. Typically "et al." is used only in in-text citations (and not in the bibliography) if you have to cite a reference with more than three authors. Sente and Bookends offer to define in which case "et al." should replace all authors except the first one.
What I meant to say is that "et al." is not a bibliographic entry in Sente on a par with editors, author, title or you-name-it. The bibliographic entries in Sente can be defined as "italics, bold, underline or plain" and will appear as such in the bibliography in Mellel if you chose not to replace them (Mellel Biblio prefs). "Et al" is only a part of the "editors" or "author" setting, and as such follows the settings for the "editors" or "authors". You can't fiddle with it in Mellel as Mellel recognizes only the whole entry ("authors", e.g.). Sente offers the option to italicize it, but that isn't transferred into Mellel.

TomEck
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Re: Sente in-text citation:How can I get "et al." italicized?

Post by TomEck » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:32 pm

verma wrote:
What I meant to say is that "et al." is not a bibliographic entry in Sente on a par with editors, author, title or you-name-it. The bibliographic entries in Sente can be defined as "italics, bold, underline or plain" and will appear as such in the bibliography in Mellel if you chose not to replace them (Mellel Biblio prefs). "Et al" is only a part of the "editors" or "author" setting, and as such follows the settings for the "editors" or "authors". You can't fiddle with it in Mellel as Mellel recognizes only the whole entry ("authors", e.g.). Sente offers the option to italicize it, but that isn't transferred into Mellel.

I see what you mean but as far as I can see Mellel recognise any character style for any element in the citation, even the settings for "et al.", and not only the whole entry. That means that Mellel does not handle "et al." as part of the "editors" or "authors" and you can transfer the settings from Mellel for the "et al." element but only in the bibliography. That means also that you can use the Mellel Bibliography preferences and replace the character style set for "et al." without effecting the "author"/"editor" settings).

Tick the "italicize 'et. al.'" box in Sente and choose in the Mellel Bibliography preferences to replace "italic" by an other character style and/or variation and you will see that this works without effecting the character style for "authors" or "editors". However, it works only for the bibliography but not for the in-text citation--and that is my problem...

verma
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Re: Sente in-text citation:How can I get "et al." italicized?

Post by verma » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:55 pm

TomEck wrote:
verma wrote:
What I meant to say is that "et al." is not a bibliographic entry in Sente on a par with editors, author, title or you-name-it. The bibliographic entries in Sente can be defined as "italics, bold, underline or plain" and will appear as such in the bibliography in Mellel if you chose not to replace them (Mellel Biblio prefs). "Et al" is only a part of the "editors" or "author" setting, and as such follows the settings for the "editors" or "authors". You can't fiddle with it in Mellel as Mellel recognizes only the whole entry ("authors", e.g.). Sente offers the option to italicize it, but that isn't transferred into Mellel.

I see what you mean but as far as I can see Mellel recognise any character style for any element in the citation, even the settings for "et al.", and not only the whole entry. That means that Mellel does not handle "et al." as part of the "editors" or "authors" and you can transfer the settings from Mellel for the "et al." element but only in the bibliography. That means also that you can use the Mellel Bibliography preferences and replace the character style set for "et al." without effecting the "author"/"editor" settings).

Tick the "italicize 'et. al.'" box in Sente and choose in the Mellel Bibliography preferences to replace "italic" by an other character style and/or variation and you will see that this works without effecting the character style for "authors" or "editors". However, it works only for the bibliography but not for the in-text citation--and that is my problem...
I suspect the Mellel replacement works with just the input - and not the actual biblio entries. While for the in-text items, it works just with the predefined entries.

TomEck
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Re: Sente in-text citation:How can I get "et al." italicized?

Post by TomEck » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:28 am

I suspect the Mellel replacement works with just the input - and not the actual biblio entries. While for the in-text items, it works just with the predefined entries.
First, there is another thread in the Sente forums (http://www.thirdstreetsoftware.com/foru ... 5#Post3886) discussing the same issue. There I have learned that I was mistaken that the same problem exists with Bookends. I have double checked the results with Bookends and I got correct in-text citations with the settings I have chosen in Bookends. The only thing is that Mellel does not allow to replace the character style in a in-text citation (for the paragraph style this makes some sense but not for the character style, anyway)--would love to see this option in one of the next updates of Mellel (probably this should not so much effort because it could use the same routine as for the Mellel bibliography preferences).

Second, I am glad to learn that in principle it is possible to format in-text citations through the reference manager and hope that the guys from Sente and Mellel will fix the problem soon.

TomEck
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Re: Sente in-text citation:How can I get "et al." italicized?

Post by TomEck » Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:53 am

FYI:

ThirdStreetSoftware-Sente.gif

waschbaer
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Re: Sente in-text citation:How can I get "et al." italicized?

Post by waschbaer » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:08 am

Great ;)

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