Feature Request: table palette

[Reiner]

Additional to the discussion on table styles http://forum.redlers.com/viewtopic.php?t=712 I would like to open the discussion on general improvement of tables. I think this is a seldom example where Mellel could learn something from Nisus, but make the thing better.

It starts with inserting a new table where Nisus has the nice option to insert some preformatted tables. When Mellel will have table styles this in combination will be unbeatable.

Nisus provides different buttons to insert a row/column before or after the actual row/column. This is very nice but a waste of space. I would suggest different buttons in Mellel which show that the row/colum will be inserted after the actual one. Holding down the option-key then should change the buttons to insert a row/column before.

I would like to have the two buttons to delete the actual row or column like they work in Nisus: you don't have to select the row/column before.

Mellel's options to select the actual row/column are great but could even be improved: Arrow-key-navigation within tables should be enabled in Mellel as it works in normal text to move the insertion point as well as to select text in combination with shift. So if I have selected e. g. one row shift-down arrow should select the next row additional. If I use shift-command-down arrow every row until the end of the table should be selected additional and so on. Also non-continguous cell selection should be enabled.

I never saw that but it would be great if Mellel also would be able to let user move a row/column-selection using the key-arrows: If I have selected the first column e. g. ctrl-right arrow should move the selection so that the second column is selected. This would be very handy.

But back to the select-row/column-buttons. Using them with the shift-key they also should select the next row/column additional. Using them with the alt-key should select the before row/column additional.

While inserting a new table you have two fields to insert the table dimensions. This fields would be great to have also while a table already exists. Nisus provides this in the table palette which is a big waste of space imho. Therefor I would suggest to use the table insertion-button to be used to edit the table dimensions dialog also when a table already exists. This would be very intuitive I think. The table direction can already be edited. Maybe one could deleted this option in the palette when the table insertion-button works as suggested.

Im totally missing an option to control width and heigth. It's true: I can change both using the mouse but the measurements are not displayed anywhere nor ist it possible to insert width and height via the keyboard. There must be an input dialog somewhere to set exact and least measurements in cm, inches, points or whatever. And it should be possible to insert width and heigth in percent (of the whole table).

As discussed for images it should be possible to let text flow round tables, but this is not very urgent I think.

The paragraph styles should be improved with the additional option "keep with before ## lines" in order to keep table-titles standing below the table on the same page. (same would be good for images of course.)

Another possibilty to reach the same aim would be the "keep with following ## lines" in the table styles, but this would not be that good if there are tables with and without titles in the same document.

But table styles should include the option "keep table on one page".

The way Mellel handles table borders is very nice. Nisus uses 14 buttons for that which is much confusing. But nevertheless I would suggest to improve the handling a bit:
1. make the field with the big field to select the borders a bit smaller so that one row with three additional buttons with most needed presets can be put there.
2. first button should be "select all horizontal and vertical borders". if already all are selected, the button should work as "select none".
3. I would suggest "select outer borders only" and "select inner borders only" as buttons two and three.

It should be possible to set diagonal borders as borders for text flow.

Additional line types could be enabled user definable via saving an image in the correct format(s) in ~/Library/Application Support/Mellel/Line types. Before this is possible some more line types could be added.

Line weigth should be fully user definable via the menu entry "Other …" like it is in the font size menu. Same with padding.

If I haven't missed something Mellel does not provide an option to set the table's orientation on the page: left, center, right should be standard. one more would be justified. I would settle this option as third in the same row with alignment and padding, which both could be shrinked a bit.

While there is no more option then "none" and "solid" (and I don't need more) in the Background-menu, I would prefer this menu to unified with the color-choosing button. It also could be nice for some users to have a look at Nisus' "Shading"-palette, which is very powerful, intuitive and nicer to use than Mellel's solution.

The delete cells button could also work when only cells are selected. Then a dialog should appear to select if which cell(s) should be enlarged to fit the appearing vacuum: left, right, above or below the deteld one(s).

Mellel provides a button "equalize column width" but I am missing "equalize row heigth" which should always choose the smallest possible heigth. Also Nisus' button "fit to content" for column width is very handy. The "fit to page" option is not necessary for Mellel if the above suggested justify-option is existing. But it should be well thought what should happen if justify is active and the command "fit to content" is given.


Lot of suggestions which will blow up the table palette a lot. Therefor it would be an additional nice feature if there were an option to show/hide or expand/collapse the table palette automacially dependend on the position of the insertion point within a table or not. If expand/collapse is chosen, the status of the other palettes should be restored if the table palette is collapsed again.

[jannuss]

If I haven't missed something Mellel does not provide an option to set the table's orientation on the page: left, center, right should be standard. one more would be justified.

You can set the orientation of any existing table by highlightling the entire table then selecting the appropriate text orientation button.

Janet

[Reiner]

Hi Janet,

your suggestion works for text orientation within the table but not for the table orientation on the page. Or have I misunderstood something?

yours, Reiner

[Normand]

May I add that it would be nice and very useful to be able to use autotitles (autonumbering) in table.
I have posted a Pool about it. The votes are very favorable (90%) even if only 11 persons answered.
See: in the pool
"Would you like to have the possibility to use autotitle (autonumbering) in tables?"

Normand

[jannuss]

your suggestion works for text orientation within the table but not for the table orientation on the page. Or have I misunderstood something?

Yes, you've misunderstood. You have to treat the table just as you would treat an image.

Take your cursor outside the table into the regular text. Now highlight [select] the entire table from the outside. Select the orientation you want.

Voilá

Janet

[Ori Redler]

Additional to the discussion on table styles http://forum.redlers.com/viewtopic.php?t=712 I would like to open the discussion on general improvement of tables. I think this is a seldom example where Mellel could learn something from Nisus, but make the thing better.

Reiner -- I think it would advance our matter if we'll speak about this using the right terms. The tables feature in Nisus is more-or-less a run-down duplicate of the same feature in MS Word (even the icons are lifted from there, with minor colour changes). It'd be more to the point to talk about the advantages of the tables in MS Word.

[Reiner]

@ Janet: I tried exactly what you wrote, but the position of the table is not changing. I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing wrong.


@ Ori: I have no doubt that you're right. The problem is, that I haven't used tables in Word since years. But I often use Nisus for tables. That's the point why I wrote about Nisus.



an addition to the suggestion for moving the insertion point with the arrow-keys: It would be absolutely intuitive if the insertion point would also be moved out of the table with the arrow keys -- if you are in first row, the up-key should move the insertion point to the line in front of the table; if you are in first cell left-key should move to the end of the named line; same with last row and last cell with down-key/right-key.

[jannuss]

Janet: I tried exactly what you wrote, but the position of the table is not changing. I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing wrong.

Oops!
You're right -- I was sure I'd gotten this to work in the past.

In any case, you can place your curser on the right-most border [for right-to-left tables like mine] or on the left-most border [for LTR tables] and simply move the entire table into the position you want.

Janet

[Reiner]

yes, that's clear. and that's why the table-positioning by machine should also work imho.

[Hans-Reinhard Koch]

I agree wholeheartedly. BUT: More important and for me the highest priority are cross-referencing and indexing!
Hans-Reinhard

[mpkuti]

But table styles should include the option "keep table on one page".

I vote for this! Please make it happen!

[jannuss]

Interesting to see this discussion resurrected

But, before we invest too much time discussing tables, I think we need to acknowledge the fact that many of us use tables because of the lack of functionality in columns (sections).

If independent column flow and variable column widths were implemented, the use of tables would decrease rapidly.

So, my vote is: yes, improve tables, but only after improving columns !!!

Janet

[markusbern]

+ 1 for Janets statement

[mpkuti]

jannuss: I actually use tables for tables.

[Hans-Reinhard Koch]

I agree wholeheartedly. BUT: More important and for me the highest priority are cross-referencing and indexing!
Hans-Reinhard

Thats what I said 5 years ago on this thread. We have a beautiful implementation of cross-linking now, but where is indexing??
Hans-Reinhard