Advice on Making a Bilingual Booklet

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catanalotes
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Advice on Making a Bilingual Booklet

Post by catanalotes »

I need to make a bilingual booklet such that both sides of the page have the same content in their respective languages. I think I have the page formatting set up just fine (landscape view). I created two columns on each page – and this would otherwise work just great, but everything just gets pushed into the opposite column.

Does anybody know a way by which I could work on a document with two columns, such that the content in Column A would always remain in Column A (that is, the text would continue downwards, not "spilling over" into Column B), and likewise with Column B?

Perhaps I shouldn't be using columns, but I'm not sure how to go about this. If there is no solution certainly I can manage. The frustration lies in having to work with page-length chunks at a time in order to prevent the text intruding into the parallel column.

Thanks in advance,
Daniel
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Re: Advice on Making a Bilingual Booklet

Post by jannuss »

catanalotes wrote:I need to make a bilingual booklet such that both sides of the page have the same content in their respective languages. I think I have the page formatting set up just fine (landscape view). I created two columns on each page – and this would otherwise work just great, but everything just gets pushed into the opposite column.
Daniel, I would recommend a totally different approach for several reasons
— Mellel does not yet include independent text flows for columns.
[This feature is on the top of the wish list for all of us doing multi-language work of the type you describe]
— none of the very useful software utilities that prepare a document to be printed as a booklet know how to cope with your type of solution
— the same holds for the booklet macros available on sophisticated copying machines
[These utilities/macros expect a standard portrait document which they then flip and rearrange according to the total number of pages.]
— finally, my experience is that no matter how careful you are to keep the columns in sync, frustration/weariness/plain lack of attention will result in errors which are the pits to correct once you find them.

I think the least stressful solution would be to create two documents: one for the right-hand flow and one for the left-hand flow.
[Remember to use Document set-up/facing pages to get the margins correct.]
When you are ready to produce your booklet, print both documents, arrange the pages in the correct order, and have the copying machine to the rest of the work. (The machines even staple the booklets and fold them.]

Janet
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Re: Advice on Making a Bilingual Booklet

Post by Ori Redler »

catanalotes wrote:I need to make a bilingual booklet such that both sides of the page have the same content in their respective languages. I think I have the page formatting set up just fine (landscape view). I created two columns on each page – and this would otherwise work just great, but everything just gets pushed into the opposite column.

Does anybody know a way by which I could work on a document with two columns, such that the content in Column A would always remain in Column A (that is, the text would continue downwards, not "spilling over" into Column B), and likewise with Column B?

Perhaps I shouldn't be using columns, but I'm not sure how to go about this. If there is no solution certainly I can manage. The frustration lies in having to work with page-length chunks at a time in order to prevent the text intruding into the parallel column.

Thanks in advance,
Daniel
Daniel, Mellel currently does not support multiple "streams" of text (which is what you probably need here). You can 'cut' the right column with a column break, but there's no way to "flow" the text between pages as it is.
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Re: Advice on Making a Bilingual Booklet

Post by Cattus Thraex »

I know, I know, this would be a MOST USEFUL feature, unfortunately you must use an application, which can do that, e.g. Pages; to say nothing of more sophisticated DTP apps. ICalamus may just work fine here.
I do hope Mellel will include this feature as soon as possible.
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Re: Advice on Making a Bilingual Booklet

Post by jannuss »

Cattus Thraex wrote:I know, I know, this would be a MOST USEFUL feature, unfortunately you must use an application, which can do that, e.g. Pages; to say nothing of more sophisticated DTP apps. ICalamus may just work fine here.
I do hope Mellel will include this feature as soon as possible.
If Daniel's second language is a Right-to-Left language, than Pages won't do the job.

I've never used ICalamus, but a quick glance at their website makes me suspicious that it's a Left-to-Right only application.

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Re: Advice on Making a Bilingual Booklet

Post by Cattus Thraex »

jannuss wrote:
Cattus Thraex wrote: If Daniel's second language is a Right-to-Left language, than Pages won't do the job.

I've never used ICalamus, but a quick glance at their website makes me suspicious that it's a Left-to-Right only application.

Janet
Correct, Pages cannot handle RTL.
I would not bet for iCalamus, but you may download it and test for a month. This is THE ONLY DTP application, which may handle multiple diacritical marks. Am not familiar with RTL scripts, but give a try, it may be worth it.
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Re: Advice on Making a Bilingual Booklet

Post by Cattus Thraex »

It seems iCalamus may handle RTL scripts, but am a greenhorn here, please make a serious test.
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catanalotes
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Re: Advice on Making a Bilingual Booklet

Post by catanalotes »

Thank you to those who replied.

For the record, fortunately I do NOT need right-to-left functionality. The second language uses a Cyrillic script, which I know Mellel has no problem handling.

I am pretty sure that Pages CANNOT do what I am asking, or if it can, the solution is not obvious.

Janet,
Thank you very much for your advice. I appreciate your explanation(s) of why the different methods you list do not work.
Could I trouble you to provide some more detail on how to set up the document for your suggested "work-around"? Also, would I then be producing two separate BOOKLETS, one for each language? If so, once I'm at the photocopier am I reduced to good, old-fashioned cutting and pasting the two texts onto a sheet of paper?
I appreciate whatever details you can add to your solution.
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Re: Advice on Making a Bilingual Booklet

Post by jannuss »

catanalotes wrote:Could I trouble you to provide some more detail on how to set up the document for your suggested "work-around"? Also, would I then be producing two separate BOOKLETS, one for each language? If so, once I'm at the photocopier am I reduced to good, old-fashioned cutting and pasting the two texts onto a sheet of paper?
I appreciate whatever details you can add to your solution.
Let me answer on two levels:

1. making a booklet in a single language:
The easiest way to prepare a booklet is create an ordinary full-page portrait document -- I prepare my booklets as A4 documents even though I plan to print them in A5 size. (The same goes with US Letter paper, that is prepare the document as 8.5 x 11 inches, but print as half-size.) You will probably want to use slightly larger character sizes and slightly different margin settings for the document. You can test your choices by printing a few pages using the Layout/Pages per sheet =2 option in the Print Menu.

Once your document is ready for printing, you will need a utility that converts it into a booklet. There are a lot of these available for download. (Unfortunately, I can't use any of them because I haven't found one that works in Right-to-Left mode.) The utility will "flip" the pages into landscape orientation and change the order of printing. For example, with an eight-page document, the utility will print
-- pages 1 and 8 on the front of the first sheet,
-- pages 2 and 7 on the back of the first sheet,
-- pages 3 and 6 on the front of the second sheet, and
-- pages 4 and 7 on the back of the second sheet
After printing, fold the pages in half, staple along the margin . . . a booklet!

As I said, I can't use booklet printing utilities. Instead I print my document as A4 (or prepare a pdf file of it) and take it to my local printing center. The sophisticated copying machines there have booklet utilities built-in and they can handle Left-to-Right documents. Better still, they do the folding and stapling for me.
[Of course, there is no cutting and pasting involved.]

Note: the maximum recommended size for a booklet printed this way is 60 pages or 15 sheets.

2. Making bilingual booklets
My suggestion is that you create two separate Mellel documents -- one for the right-hand flow and one for the left-hand flow. Open both on your screen at the same time and work on them together. It will take a little practice and discipline to keep everything separate, but after a day or two you will be totally used to it.

Again, you should experiment with character sizes and margin settings to get the right mix. Also, page numbering will be an issue. For me, having the same page number on both right and left sides works OK. You can label them 5-left and 5-right, for example.

Once you are ready to produce your booklet. again you have two choices. First choice is to create a pdf file using two utilities: one to merge your two documents and one to create the booklet. The second choice is to print both documents, shuffle them together [... 5-left, 5-right, 6-left, 6-right, ...] and hand the stack over to a booklet-making copying machine.

it all sounds very complex, but after you've done it once or twice, it will go very smoothly.

I produce an average of eight to ten 24-page booklets each month and print about fifty copies of each. This makes me a steady customer of my print center. The people there have been very helpful finding solutions for me and setting up good working procedures. Working with them has made the entire process very smooth.

Janet
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Re: Advice on Making a Bilingual Booklet

Post by farcas »

So as others have stated, independent text flows for columns would be a gem. Here I'll I'll only offer my vote for this feature in future versions. But I'd also like to voice a vote for improving tables in a way that could serve as a nice work around. Currently cells in tables don't flow over to the next page but get lost in no man's land (technical term for below where I can see :)

Regarding Pages, it now support RTL, both in iCloud and iOS. But who wants to use Pages...? Not me. All the advanced language features in Mellel make it a perfect choice for bilingual (or trilingual etc) work. Improving the columns would make many lives happy!


Thanks!
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Re: Advice on Making a Bilingual Booklet

Post by exoterikos »

Hello Janet.

Thanks for your posting. Would you tell me please, if option 2 below is still the best method? I am attempting to create a bilingual (translation) English Hebrew document. The sections should line up, on the same page (ideally) , or on facing pages, as in your suggestion.

Do you have any further suggestions on how to make the two line up well? And can you recommend a pdf utility that can merge the two documents into a pdf file for printing?

Thanks.
JJ



jannuss wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:05 am
catanalotes wrote:Could I trouble you to provide some more detail on how to set up the document for your suggested "work-around"? Also, would I then be producing two separate BOOKLETS, one for each language? If so, once I'm at the photocopier am I reduced to good, old-fashioned cutting and pasting the two texts onto a sheet of paper?
I appreciate whatever details you can add to your solution.
Let me answer on two levels:

1. making a booklet in a single language:
The easiest way to prepare a booklet is create an ordinary full-page portrait document -- I prepare my booklets as A4 documents even though I plan to print them in A5 size. (The same goes with US Letter paper, that is prepare the document as 8.5 x 11 inches, but print as half-size.) You will probably want to use slightly larger character sizes and slightly different margin settings for the document. You can test your choices by printing a few pages using the Layout/Pages per sheet =2 option in the Print Menu.

Once your document is ready for printing, you will need a utility that converts it into a booklet. There are a lot of these available for download. (Unfortunately, I can't use any of them because I haven't found one that works in Right-to-Left mode.) The utility will "flip" the pages into landscape orientation and change the order of printing. For example, with an eight-page document, the utility will print
-- pages 1 and 8 on the front of the first sheet,
-- pages 2 and 7 on the back of the first sheet,
-- pages 3 and 6 on the front of the second sheet, and
-- pages 4 and 7 on the back of the second sheet
After printing, fold the pages in half, staple along the margin . . . a booklet!

As I said, I can't use booklet printing utilities. Instead I print my document as A4 (or prepare a pdf file of it) and take it to my local printing center. The sophisticated copying machines there have booklet utilities built-in and they can handle Left-to-Right documents. Better still, they do the folding and stapling for me.
[Of course, there is no cutting and pasting involved.]

Note: the maximum recommended size for a booklet printed this way is 60 pages or 15 sheets.

2. Making bilingual booklets
My suggestion is that you create two separate Mellel documents -- one for the right-hand flow and one for the left-hand flow. Open both on your screen at the same time and work on them together. It will take a little practice and discipline to keep everything separate, but after a day or two you will be totally used to it.

Again, you should experiment with character sizes and margin settings to get the right mix. Also, page numbering will be an issue. For me, having the same page number on both right and left sides works OK. You can label them 5-left and 5-right, for example.

Once you are ready to produce your booklet. again you have two choices. First choice is to create a pdf file using two utilities: one to merge your two documents and one to create the booklet. The second choice is to print both documents, shuffle them together [... 5-left, 5-right, 6-left, 6-right, ...] and hand the stack over to a booklet-making copying machine.

it all sounds very complex, but after you've done it once or twice, it will go very smoothly.

I produce an average of eight to ten 24-page booklets each month and print about fifty copies of each. This makes me a steady customer of my print center. The people there have been very helpful finding solutions for me and setting up good working procedures. Working with them has made the entire process very smooth.

Janet
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