Hi all,
The title says it all, I'm currently writing a size limited proposal and I would like for my bibliography to appear as a footnote on each page of my document, this question has probably been asked in the past but i couldn't find any useful information either here, on the FAQ or in the mellel guide for this specific issue.
I don't care about the numbering of references being reset (or not) in each page, but each reference should appear in the bibliography on the same page updated live to keep an eye on the document length.
I found only a dumb way to do it which is insert a footnote in every page and then copy/paste bibliography of the adequate references into each one of them, but it is obviously very time consuming and totally impractical.
My question is then, what's the normal way to do it?
PS; I'm using Mellel 5.1.6r2 with Bookends 14.2.6 combo on Big Sur.
Bibliography in footnote on each page
Moderators: Eyal Redler, redlers, Ori Redler
Re: Bibliography in footnote on each page
It’s because this has nothing to do with Mellel. This is controlled entirely in Bookends.
Before I go into details, what reference style are you using for documenting your sources?
Re: Bibliography in footnote on each page
I'm using an shortened ACS-style for bibliography, so authors et al., paper title, journal name, date, volume (issue) and DOI.
Re: Bibliography in footnote on each page
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Last edited by Icelander on Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Bibliography in footnote on each page
There are a few misconceptions I'd like to clear up.
1. If ACS = American Chemical Society, then Bookends has a format for that. It is J Am Chem Soc.fmt.
2. To get the output described, especially as an automated process, Mellel would indeed have to be involved. It would have to be able to generate a separate bibliography for each page, something that Eyal and I have discussed. Everything else is a kludge.
3. The process described by Icelander will work, but can be refined.
(a) Instead of deleting the Bibliography Options data, just UNCHECK the "Generate bibliography" option in the scan dialog.
(b) You can use the ACS citation style for real footnotes and the bibliography style for the fake footnote, but it will require a few extra steps by you. I can think of a few variations on this approach, here's one:
Create an extra footnote on each page that will hold the "bibliography". Whenever you add a temp citation to a footnote on that page (with Live Bibliography active, if you like), then place the insertion point in the fake footnote and do an Edit -> Copy Formatted -> Bibliography. The formatted bibliography item will be pasted in. If you use floating citations (double tap the Control key) you won't have to switch between Mellel and Bookends to do the Copy Formatted step.
Among the drawbacks is that the bibliography items will not be numbered, will be text, not citation objects, can't be removed by unscanning, and of course the process is not automated. But I think it will get you very close to what you want.
I'm not sure if you find this much better than your current solution.
Jon
Sonny Software
1. If ACS = American Chemical Society, then Bookends has a format for that. It is J Am Chem Soc.fmt.
2. To get the output described, especially as an automated process, Mellel would indeed have to be involved. It would have to be able to generate a separate bibliography for each page, something that Eyal and I have discussed. Everything else is a kludge.
3. The process described by Icelander will work, but can be refined.
(a) Instead of deleting the Bibliography Options data, just UNCHECK the "Generate bibliography" option in the scan dialog.
(b) You can use the ACS citation style for real footnotes and the bibliography style for the fake footnote, but it will require a few extra steps by you. I can think of a few variations on this approach, here's one:
Create an extra footnote on each page that will hold the "bibliography". Whenever you add a temp citation to a footnote on that page (with Live Bibliography active, if you like), then place the insertion point in the fake footnote and do an Edit -> Copy Formatted -> Bibliography. The formatted bibliography item will be pasted in. If you use floating citations (double tap the Control key) you won't have to switch between Mellel and Bookends to do the Copy Formatted step.
Among the drawbacks is that the bibliography items will not be numbered, will be text, not citation objects, can't be removed by unscanning, and of course the process is not automated. But I think it will get you very close to what you want.
I'm not sure if you find this much better than your current solution.
Jon
Sonny Software
Re: Bibliography in footnote on each page
Dear Jon and Icelander,
Thank you both for your quick answers!
I realize now that I actually made a mistake in my description, the references in my main text should just appear as an exponent number while being in shorter ACS-type of style in the footnote bibliography.
However, with what you both told me, there's essentially no "built-in" way to do it but only workarounds, it's a bummer but I definitely understand that it's impossible to cover every use case especially such niche ones as this.
I think with your tips it should work just fine! Thanks!
@Icelander ACS is indeed American Chemical Society, however the J Am Chem Soc.fmt is actually not compliant with ACS formatting guide for journal articles ( https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acsguide.40303 ) It's very close but not quite correct, as a dot should be present after article title and the issue number should be included with volume (not in italic either). Thankfully this is easy to fix in Bookends via the formats manager.
Thank you both for your quick answers!
I realize now that I actually made a mistake in my description, the references in my main text should just appear as an exponent number while being in shorter ACS-type of style in the footnote bibliography.
However, with what you both told me, there's essentially no "built-in" way to do it but only workarounds, it's a bummer but I definitely understand that it's impossible to cover every use case especially such niche ones as this.
I think with your tips it should work just fine! Thanks!
@Icelander ACS is indeed American Chemical Society, however the J Am Chem Soc.fmt is actually not compliant with ACS formatting guide for journal articles ( https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acsguide.40303 ) It's very close but not quite correct, as a dot should be present after article title and the issue number should be included with volume (not in italic either). Thankfully this is easy to fix in Bookends via the formats manager.
Re: Bibliography in footnote on each page
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Last edited by Icelander on Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Bibliography in footnote on each page
Hello Jon,
Could you upload a simple image or drawing so we can get an idea how this would look like?
Thanks for this tip, I overlooked that. So I guess everything I said about deleting the Bibliography Options data is now obsolete.(a) Instead of deleting the Bibliography Options data, just UNCHECK the "Generate bibliography" option in the scan dialog.
What would be the purpose of such a bibliography? I have never heard of anything like that, and I can’t even imagine how that would look like. Where would such a bibliography be positioned?to generate a separate bibliography for each page, something that Eyal and I have discussed
Could you upload a simple image or drawing so we can get an idea how this would look like?
Last edited by Icelander on Sun Jul 07, 2024 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Bibliography in footnote on each page
So, based on what you say, it then really seems that the original poster wants a bibliography on each page after all. I thought that was absurd, so I rejected the idea and thought he must mean something else.jda wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:49 pm Create an extra footnote on each page that will hold the "bibliography". Whenever you add a temp citation to a footnote on that page (with Live Bibliography active, if you like), then place the insertion point in the fake footnote and do an Edit -> Copy Formatted -> Bibliography.
After all, I think such a “bibliography” would be redundant since all references on a page are already documented in the footnotes.
Is this perhaps something which has become established in STEM subjects?
Re: Bibliography in footnote on each page
Sorry for causing confusion, sometimes, an image is worth a thousand words.
That's what I meant when I said a bibliography as a footnote of every page.
That's what I meant when I said a bibliography as a footnote of every page.
Re: Bibliography in footnote on each page
Dear Santos,
Thank you for the screenshot.
I don’t see any bibliography here, only formatted citations, which is actually what I suspected right from the beginning.
When using a reference manager in the humanities, a ‘bibliography’ means a long list of references, which has been generated from citations and is usually placed at the end of a document. That’s also how it’s explained on p. 161 in the Mellel User Guide.
And to use Bookends terminology, what I see on your screenshot is not a bibliography but only formatted citations.
Perhaps the term “bibliography” is used differently or more loosely in chemistry.
The screenshot also shows that you are using multiple footnotes per line with approximately 0,1 cm between each footnote. I don’t think Mellel has such a note feature. Therefore you must have created the document in another word processor. Notes in Mellel can only be vertical, not horizontal.
If this has changed recently, then please correct me.
Re: Bibliography in footnote on each page
Hi Icelander,
This specific document has been made in Words and it just the kind of template I'm using.
As for the difference between bibliography and formatted citations, I might just be lost in translation as English isn't my native language but for me a bibliography is a collection of formatted citations wether they are at the end of a page, a section or an entire document.
Never to late to learn new things, so thanks for that!
This specific document has been made in Words and it just the kind of template I'm using.
As for the difference between bibliography and formatted citations, I might just be lost in translation as English isn't my native language but for me a bibliography is a collection of formatted citations wether they are at the end of a page, a section or an entire document.
Never to late to learn new things, so thanks for that!
Re: Bibliography in footnote on each page
@Icelander
I only mentioned a bib after every page because that is what I thought the request was here. Actually, it would be after every section (and a page could be a section). Think of a book with chapters. You might want each chapter to have its own bibliography. The only way to do that now is to make each chapter it's own document, scan each of those, and then merge them to create the book.
@Santos2m
As Icelander pointed out, what you want is not a bibliography. And it looking at what you want, it seems pretty straightforward. You create the footnotes, insert the temp citations into them, and then scan (and suppress the generation of a bibliography). The final (formatted) citations will appear at the bottom of the page, one per footnote. I don't know how Mellel handles large numbers of footnotes, whether some will spill over to the next page or not. But from a Bookends perspective, that's how it should work.
I'll take a look at the JACS format, Journals change all the time, and I update formats when I'm made aware.
Jon
Sonny Software
I only mentioned a bib after every page because that is what I thought the request was here. Actually, it would be after every section (and a page could be a section). Think of a book with chapters. You might want each chapter to have its own bibliography. The only way to do that now is to make each chapter it's own document, scan each of those, and then merge them to create the book.
@Santos2m
As Icelander pointed out, what you want is not a bibliography. And it looking at what you want, it seems pretty straightforward. You create the footnotes, insert the temp citations into them, and then scan (and suppress the generation of a bibliography). The final (formatted) citations will appear at the bottom of the page, one per footnote. I don't know how Mellel handles large numbers of footnotes, whether some will spill over to the next page or not. But from a Bookends perspective, that's how it should work.
I'll take a look at the JACS format, Journals change all the time, and I update formats when I'm made aware.
Jon
Sonny Software
Re: Bibliography in footnote on each page
That’s certainly true. Therefore I wonder why you have now deleted the screenshot ??????Sorry for causing confusion, sometimes, an image is worth a thousand words
Deleting the screenshot will prevent future Mellel users from understanding what the whole issue was about.
Until the original screenshot appears again, I would like to point out for new users that the OP was using a wrong terminology from the very beginning. He talked about a “bibliography”, whereas he should have said “a formatted citation”. This led us all astray.
